Talk:Brothel

I see many glaring issues with this article, so I'll just jump right into it:

• Is its existence justified? I find it superfluous and misleading. We have general "overview" articles for things like Armouries and Apothecaries, I assume, because there are many of them encountered throughout the series. As far as I know, there is exactly one establishment in the entire saga that can clearly be classified as a brothel: the Baths in U7 (as an aside, it has never been called the House of Baths, so why does that name keep reappearing on the wiki?). Wanda and Andreas in U6 did not operate out of a brothel; one could argue that Jade technically did in U9, but I personally find that tenuous given she was operating alone out of a small, single room dwelling. In light of these shortcomings, the article essentially paraphrases what is better covered in the Baths' own page, and lacks focus for the rest, leaping from prostitution as a profession, to an actual brothel and then, bizarrely, to the interpersonal relations of characters not even involved in prostitution.

• Elaborating on that note, I find the final section's attempt to relate the activities of certain Serpent Islanders with prostitution extraneous and vaguely slut-shaming. I don't see how Brendann, Lucilla, or Frigidazzi's desire to bed the Avatar affects the existence of the profession, or lack thereof, in any way. Think what you will about the infidelities of the various mages in Moonshade, but they are similarly irrelevant.

• The tone of the article is oozing with moral judgement from the opening paragraph. When the author's opinion of the subject at hand is so readily discernible, this is a problem. The reader should not feel like they are being lectured from any particular point of view.

• The assumption is made that the Baths were destroyed in the Great Cataclysm, when in fact we have no idea what happened. They just as easily could have been shut down with the disbandment of the Fellowship.

• The illustration appears to be a hastily edited version of the Armoury sign from the Book of Lore, and in my opinion, has no place purporting to originate from official material. It also reinforces the false notions that a) brothels are somehow widespread establishments in the Ultima series, and b) that their employees are exclusively female.

--Terilem (talk) 10:40, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

As the assumption of brothels in each Ultima game may confuse people, I suggest to integrate prostitution in The Baths. There are several hints that it existed in some parts of the history. The Wenches in Ultima I and Ultima II (Ithilian The Wench), Wanda and Andreas in Ultima VI.--Arthgon (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd disagree w/an article lecturing and making moral judgments if those values come from Earth and are not present in Brtiannia. I can't think of anything suggesting that there's widespread in-game disapproval of the sex industry.

If that image is not merely a cropped scan, but an editor creation, it should definitely be removed. (Though I would disagree that it was hastily edited. It appears masterfully edited).

Yes, the mandate of the article is unclear, and the last paragraph seem non sequitur.

Finally, I wonder if the entire article should be deleted as well. Perhaps it could be changed to reflect the concept of sex in the games, because they are there. But we don't usually make articles for concepts this abstract, do we? We usually make categories for that. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps an article with the name: Everything an Avatar Should Know About Sex, but is too afraid to ask. :) Edit: Do not want to be nitpicky, but the underside of the Sign is bigger than the upper side and darker.--Arthgon (talk) 18:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Does an article about sex fits here (although the Avatar can have a good time in Ultima VI (even Sherry *wink*), VII and Ultima VII Part Two? --Arthgon (talk) 18:22, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Terilem about the tone of this article. Normally I would encourage a complete rewrite but in this case, per Terilem's first point, a Brothel article is unessecary and I am going to simply delete it. If someone wishes to write an article about the Avatar's possible romantic and sexual encounters that is fine. But it needs to be handled completely differently than this. Perhaps look to Mass Effect's article for inspiration. It most definitely needs to be without any moral judgements and lectures. -- Fenyx4 19:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

An idea

Prostitution

History

Age of Darkness

While it is not sure if this was already integrated in the Realm of Sosaria, for it has never been encountered personally by the Stranger, it appeared for the first time on Earth as Minax altered the time line of Terran history in Ultima II. The Stranger met them in the form of wenches at the pubs in the towns.

Age of enlightenment

It was not until the Gargish Wars in Ultima VI, that the Avatar encountered the concept of prostitution in the Realm of Britannia. As the party of the Avatar entered the city Minoc, they came across the gypsies Wanda and Andreas, who for a price will sleep with each party member, regardless of gender.

Age of Armageddon

During the Age of Armageddon in Ultima VII, the pleasures of the flesh was encountered once more, as the Avatar visit Buccaneer's Den and met Martine, "Wench" and Roberto whom the party (regardless of gender) can sleep with. Yes or No?--Arthgon (talk) 23:36, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

It's a start, but it will need some cleaning up. I can't say I agree with integrating this into the Baths article, though. While related, they are still two distinct subjects. The Baths should remain focused on the establishment itself, not the history of prostitution as a profession.

The frequent references to prostitution being the world's oldest profession are a real world concept that may or may not apply to the Ultima universe. We don't know.

Also, Ithilian is depicted as a bar wench in Ultima I, which tends not to mean a prostitute. She appears to be more like a pickpocket in that game. It does seem like it might be a different story in Ultima II, though.

Finally, I'd caution against using wording that specifically assumes something like prostitution has disappeared from the world just because it didn't happen to be encountered by the Stranger/Avatar in a particular game. --Terilem (talk) 08:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I have changed some bits. How is it now? --Arthgon (talk) 10:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

To be frank, I'm not a fan. :/ I'm not sure it's even relevant enough to warrant its own article, or section within an article. Isn't it better to just include the relevant information within each applicable article? --Warder Dragon (talk) 06:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

What do you suggest? Edit: Actually, it was an idea, that I first want to discuss with you all, before I may integrate it into an article. So, it is not the final product. If you know what I mean. It always can be changed into the romances of the Avatar or Everything an Avatar Should Know About Romances (but is too afraid to ask). --Arthgon (talk) 08:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I suggest not creating an article at all. This doesn't have anything to do with romance anyway. Everything included in your proposal can be (and probably already is?) included in the respective articles, like The Baths or Wanda. I don't see any reason or value in compiling the very short list of times the Avatar bumped into prostitution into an article of its own. --Warder Dragon (talk) 09:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

You are right. Moving all the relevant items to the respective articles is much better. Perhaps an article about the Avatar's possible romantic and sexual encounters, without compiling the very short list of times the Avatar bumped into prostitution? --Arthgon (talk) 09:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)