Talk:Weapon values

Cleanup ideas

Yuck, Some of these tables are too long. Were weapons broken up into different categories in prior games? - User:Iceblade 20:50 16 Feb. 2012 (EST)

Not really, no. Some of those sections could really benefit from being shortened or at least double-columned. Dungy 17:54, 16 February 2012 (PST)

I'm on it. Have fun with the UVL walkthrough. :p User:Iceblade 20:55 16 Feb. 2012 (EST)

That and finishing that damned Ultima VI Transcript. I'm so sick of looking at that thing. 38 NPCs to go... Dungy 18:01, 16 February 2012 (PST)

I think it would also be a good idea to remove columns when their data is all the same, or nearly all the same, and put the exceptions under "Notes". If no one objects, I think I will. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Upon making some edits, I've come to realize that there are a number of things, largely among consistency of style, that I think should be addressed.

1. Just taking the opportunity to reiterate the need to remove reiteration. That is, if the range of every melee weapon is 1, then we don't need an entire column for it. If there's a single exception, like the halberd in U4, we can use notes for that.
2. "Used up", "single use", "breaks", "spent", "one-shot deal"... I think we should come up w/one term for that.
3. "Notes", "(special) attributes": shouldn't they be all the same thing?
4. I think italicizing all the notes is a good idea. Some tables aren't consistent about that.
5. How should we justify the cells? Some are centred and others are left. And some switch it up in the same table. That might make the most sense. I just implemented it for the Ultima I table. If I don't hear any cries of revulsion, I'll probably figure out how to do regular expressions and do a find/replace on the rest of the article.
   1. Pure numeric columns: right justify. This works best if the decimal points are lined up, so there would have to be the same number of decimal digits. Maybe this shouldn't be applied to entire columns, but just cells that are purely numeric.
   2. Cells w/an image: centre. On the other hand, none of the cells for the earlier games had images, and they probably never will, because OSI didn't furnish the games w/any. It might look a little off if some weapon name cells were centre and the others were left. Maybe we should make all the weapon name cells centred.
   3. Cells w/the '--' null indicator: centre. Yes, this means that justification will be staggered in those columns.
   4. Everything else: left justify
6. Sometimes notes are separated by semi-colons, other times they were made into complete sentences, separated by periods. I think very brief notes separated by semi-colons is good.
7. The unevenness of all these tables looks pretty bad, but I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe centring them would improve that?
8. Sometimes "DEX", "INT", "bash" and "slash" are thrown in there and it's presumed that the reader should know what they mean and how they are used. I think some short essays outside of the tables should explain that.
9. There should be some distinction about unavailable data. Right now that usually is an empty cell in a table, but sometimes that is also used for no data. Those no data cells are usually filled w/'--'s so I think that should be applied consistently.
10. Whoa! I just realized the icons for nearly all the U5 weapons are the same sword. How did I miss that? I'm not sure what it should be, though. Where did those icons come from? I don't remember that game having paperdolls or anything.
11. I also notice that there's a lot of inappropriate use of case, mostly in the weapon name columns, but nearly everywhere there's a link. Unless we're going to turn these into proper nouns, I think something needs to be done about that.
12. Speaking of which, there's a problem as to which weapons should be common and which are proper. I was just about to change a whole bunch of other weapon names, until I realized I was in over my head. I think I'll hold off until we can get straightened out on this.
13. And it seems we haven't been italicizing as we should.
14. There's some unevenness w/the subheadings. All the game names are in level 2 headings, but only the UU2 section uses level 3 and 4 heading. All the others begin subheadings w/a semi-colon (in the source). This unevenness is more apparent in the table of contents. Not sure which is the best way to go here.
15. Another inconsistency is the way that tables and weapon columns are labelled. Take, for instance the U3 weapons: an entire table has the heading "melee weapons", then the first column has the heading "weapon". Other times the column heading is just "name" and for others, the column heading will have a title as sophisticated as "tools usable as weapons". This should be standardized.

I think these format standards should all be eventually out-lined somewhere permanently and also applied to Armour Values, which I haven't looked at yet, and any other similar data-based articles that anyone else can think of. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

All weapons in U5 use the sword icon, yes. It's strictly for when picking up treasure from the ground. --Warder Dragon (talk) 07:21, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Wow, ok... then I guess the correct thing to do was to put them in like that. It sure looks weird, though. I'd be good if we had a way to telegraph to the reader that we know what we're doing. I think I have an idea: alt text or some such thing. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 19:14, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

What about a note above the table clarifying that U5 has a generic icon for all weapons? --Terilem (talk) 23:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Cleanup #15: table/column inconsistency.

I agree. We should probably add merged/centered headers for some of the tables wherein different weapon types are split. Also we should either have separate tables by weapon type or place all weapons for a game into a single table for each game with several column groups organized by weapon type. I favor separate tables as it keeps the page width thinner. -- Iceblade 04:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I started a discussion on Talk:Elena#Formatting empty cells in tables but I think I'll continue with my thinking here:

1. Split tables: I don't think we need to join tables, so they form a big monolithic table. The way Weapon values#Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny looks is fine w/me. That would eliminate the problem of what to do w/these deadspace cells, like I talked about in Talk:Elena. Unfortunately, this means nested tables, which means more work for us. Not my idea of fun.
2. Captions: we should start using captions for tables (putting "|+" as the second line of a table). I think it will make the purpose of the table clearer. Looking at the Ultima V section (as it is now) it's a little confusing to be "Melee weapons" as a column header, when it should be the table header.
3. Justification: I'm going to go w/my ideas about justification from all those years ago. Unfortunately, everywhere else on the wiki, everything is centre justified. I'm not sure how to deal w/fields like "7.5 ± 3.5" or "5-8". Maybe I'll make separate columns for those
4. Equipment name/icon: Even though just about every equipment table anywhere has the icon in one column and the name in the next, I like the one given by Weapon values#Ultima VII: The Black Gate with the name and icon in the same cell, one on top of the other. Unfortunately, it spreads the row out vertically. Maybe consistency in this case isn't the best solution. But what is the best solution? I have a laptop, connected to a 27" monitor and a phone. Catering to both the UHD monitor and the phone isn't going to work. Perhaps individual solutions should revolve around which causes the least amount of white space. So yeah, I guess we won't have any consistency in this regard, within the article.

--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:05, 22 April 2022 (MDT)

I've decided to keep a living(?) document at User:The_Ultra-Mind#Notes_on_what_I_think_makes_a_good_table of my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to get up-to-date on them, but if you want to comment on them, please do so here.--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2022 (MDT)

Weapon icons

Does anybody have the images for the Ultima 5 weapon icons or did they all look like blades?

I'll see about adding icons from U9. --Iceblade

Yeah, U5 had generic icons for weapons and armour. --polygoncount (Polygon Dragon -==(UDIC)==-) 23:06, 7 January 2013 (PST)

On the DOS version, U5 had distinct icons for: Helm, Shield, Armour, Dagger/Main Gauche, Club, Sling, Flame Oil, Spear, Throwing Axe, Mace, Morning Star, Bow, Crossbow, Sword, 2H Hammer, 2H Axe, 2H Sword, Halbred, Silver Sword, Ring, Amulet of Turning, Ankh, Spiked Collar. (And maybe Glass/Jeweled/Mystic Sword / Magic Shield.) DanWeber (talk) 23:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Missing Weapon Info

In u7 and u7.5 you are missing Magician's Wand which is 8 in 7 and 3 in 7.5. Both are range 20. [icon: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8a1K8EUgZmVM1lGR1N2aFNYSXM/edit?usp=sharing] The black sword in 7 does 25+curse, in 7.5 it only does 9 range 4 on both. Starbursts do 6 damage and explode. These are gotten from the two SHAPES files as parsed by Exult Studio. (John Tennyson - no account)--128.119.53.229 12:35, 4 April 2013 (PDT) Oh forgot Janna's Hawk in 7 is 5 damage with a range of 17, returns to her and always hits. [icon: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8a1K8EUgZmVODFnNXhwUmIxSjg/edit?usp=sharing] jt --128.119.53.229 12:44, 4 April 2013 (PDT)

Added hawk. Will add wand soon. Create an account and join in the fun. Dungy (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2013 (PDT)

I updated the black sword and starburst entries. --Elvish Dragon (talk) 11:41, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

Missing Weapons

Did you know that there are several other weapons in Ultima VII?

• A Magic Boomerang
• Flaming Oil
• Poison Dagger
• Great Dagger

--Arthgon (talk) 05:19, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Please insert these (don't have the timemyself).--Tribun (talk) 06:07, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Okay. I will. Do you know their damage? I have not found them...yet. Or shall I leave the damage blank, untill they have been found?--Arthgon (talk) 06:24, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Poison Dagger: 1

Great Dagger: 5

Magic Boomerang: 2

Only Flaming Oil remains unknown. --Tribun (talk) 06:32, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Thank you. --Arthgon (talk) 06:33, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Magic boomerang has a damage of 2? The regular boomerang seems to be 3. Is that correct? Dungy (talk) 10:46, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

I agree. A magic weapon is always better than a regular one. That's why I did not insert it yet. Also, according to Vetron's Guide to Weapons and Armour, the Great Dagger has an effectiveness rating of 11. --Arthgon (talk) 11:11, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Sad as it is, in VII magic boomerang is indeed 2, range 31 it is not on SI [from parsing out the shapes file] and great dagger is 5 range 4 Flaming oil is odd, it has no damage in the game but it triggers usecode. If I had to hazard a guess, it probably creates a fire field. -- John Tennyson (who has applied for an account finally ;)) --

Added the worlds most pointless magic item ;) and the flaming oil --Elvish Dragon (talk) 11:51, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

128.119.53.229 10:56, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

I also found out that the knife is not added yet in Ultima VII and SI. I will do this soon. --Arthgon (talk) 19:15, 6 May 2013 (PDT)

Some weapons are also missing from SI, hope you can add them in.--Tribun (talk) 11:58, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

I know of two (black sword and magician's wand) I will put up soon (probably tomorrow) but if you get me a list of any others, I will pull their images and values from the shapes file and put them up too. --Elvish Dragon (talk) 14:39, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

The Lightning Wand and Lucky Arrows are missing as well.--Tribun (talk) 14:46, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

Done. I just added them. --Arthgon (talk) 12:59, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Staff?

I really looked everywhere inside the game but I still cannot find it. So, are you really sure that this is actually to be found in Ultima VII. Anyone? --Arthgon (talk) 05:53, 27 April 2013 (PDT)

Update: It is still nowhere to be seen. I have looked everywhere inside of the game. Would it be any chance that it is actually an item from SI and not from Ultima VII? Anyone? --Arthgon (talk) 19:19, 6 May 2013 (PDT)

I used Exult Studio, and couldn't find it. Get rid of it. Dungy (talk) 05:22, 7 May 2013 (PDT)

Is it to be found in SI or shall I remove it there as well? --Arthgon (talk) 15:00, 7 May 2013 (PDT)

It is in SI, you for example get one when thrown into the Mountain of Freedom.--Tribun (talk) 04:56, 8 May 2013 (PDT)

Ultima VII Part Two DONE!!!

Just like the armour, I have finished cleaning and fixed the weapons of Serpent Isle. IF I have missed one or two please do tell me and I will fix it. --Arthgon (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Still wondering about these weapons (or items):

1)

2)

Anyone has an idea what they're?

Edit: As you can see, I also added the missing weapons: Black Sword, Magician's wand, The Lightning Wand and Lucky Arrows and the Worm Hammer. --Arthgon (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

They're both from the Temple of Enthusiasm.

The flaming scepter is on an altar with a plaque above it that says "Scepter of Enlightenment". It does absolutely nothing, and trying to use it as a weapon can crash the game.

The white wand is in the chest between two serpent statues. It's a Wand of Lifting! Double click on it and click on a lightweight object, then choose the height you want to lift it to. Neat, but not very useful. --Lavacopter (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Ultima VI Weight?

Are you sure that the weight of things are correct? I've just noticed in-game that the Two-Handed Sword is 3.4 Stones. Is Nuvia the same as the original game? I will double-check it and correcting them if needed.--Arthgon (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Ultima IV (Magic Bow and Axe)

Magic Axe - Official game dox show M.Axe weaker than M.Bow Magic Bow - Value in doubt. Official game dox show M.Axe weaker than M.Bow) 71.227.198.136 15:27, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

What's '"Damage" adds 1.5 *x the character's STR'?

Does this mean that the net damage is the listed damage, plus 1.5 multiplied by the character's STR? The Ultra-Mind (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm guessing Total Damage = Weapon Damage + (Strength x 1.5) --Terilem (talk) 14:09, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

So do I but what if we're wrong? Being wrong is not obviously better than confusing. It'd help if we knew who put that there... Abacos--I'll give him a shout. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 18:13, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I was asked to join this discussion. I did not write that line, it was there already before I edited the page. Since I did not write it (and I did not understand it, too), I left it untouched. --Abacos (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Uh... ok... does this ring a bell? The Ultra-Mind (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

The line was at the bottom of the table, and since it was not a footnote, I moved it to the top. That's all. --Abacos (talk) 16:50, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I found it: the line was added by Polygoncount in 2013, when the Ultima 3 weapons section was created. It can be seen here --Abacos (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

PC's not been around in a while, so if he doesn't get back to us, I think we should go ahead and just removed it until we get can straight on that issue. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 21:25, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Reading Polygoncount's original it is clear to me what it means. I'll try to reword your edit, Abacos, to clear it up. -- Fenyx4 03:21, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

The table is sourced from LairWare, so I tracked down the original post here. Strength is multiplied by 1.5, then added to the base weapon damage. --Terilem (talk) 04:54, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I liked Fenyx's formulaic style a little better (although I would have used 'x' for multiplication and something other than angle brackets) but perhaps being an engineer has affected my objectivity. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 22:32, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I thought perhaps laying it out in simple terms would be better to avoid any further confusion for all readers. Feel free to change it back to a formula though. --Terilem (talk) 01:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Overhaul and a lot of questions that came up during

I finally got around to overhauling the article. I changed the formatting such that images would be centred as would be empty data tokens, figures would be right aligned and monospaced (using a CSS class) and everything else would be left justified (usually).

I also packed multiple tables side-by-side according to what I thought looked good, and applied a table class to all the tables to enforce consistency.

Now, data I wasn't sure about:

1. U3: damage is decided by adding 150% to the Str. This means that the formula for total damage is (base damage) + 2.5 x STR. Is that right?
2. U5: halberd and morning star like U4 halberd: no adjacent targets, right? Hope so, because that's what I put
3. U6: what's the spear's range?
4. U6: Did U6 have a pick and a scythe?
5. U7 weight unit. Stones? I get the feeling that U6 may have been the only game to provide a weight unit. The answer may require Rings and Stone_(disambiguation) to need edited
6. U7: are bolts and arrows weightless?
7. U7 starbursts have "0" under "range". Shouldn't it be at least 1?
8. U7: Why was "ranged ammunition" (what I renamed "projectiles") not given range? They were all give a hyphenated range before so I just removed the column
9. U7: "Projectiles" was the best generalization I could find to replace "ammunition" (when not talking about ammunition).
10. U7.5: Are Serpent Isle figures given in the Ultima Collection based vanilla Serpent Isle or w/Silver Seed installed? This article used to say that serpent arrows did no damage w/out SS and +6 w/, but the hint book says "+1". It also says vanilla arrows are +1, but according to this article, it gets reduced to that amount (from +4) when installing SS. In fact, I found myself correcting rather a lot of SI figures, which calls into question the notes, but I wasn't able to validate any of the notes.
11. U7.5: I'm wondering if the range for the ammo is irrelevant because it's the launching weapon that decides the range
12. U7.5: Did SI have a cleaver?
13. U9: I wrestled w/whether or not to include the ranges. The article already had ranges for the bows, but the hint book also includes them for everything else. In the end, I let sleeping dogs lie
14. Pan-Ultima: What's "magic damage" and "lightning damage" and "fire damage" and all other forms of qualified damage? More importantly: does it make any difference to the game mechanics?
15. Pan-Ultima: Glass swords have a magic-looking hue in U6, but does that make them always magic? I never felt like they were. Maybe if the above question was answered, this one might be more apparent (i.e., the U7 table doesn't say it does "magic damage" but almost everything else in that table does)
16. Pan-Ultima: "Drop" means the weapon won't be consumed by the attack and can be recovered, right? I think the write up on that would be in order

Speaking of that last one, I had a bit of trouble trying to homogenize the terms like I expressed an interest in doing several years ago. I found it didn't always work that way. For instance, a wand might be "spent" but I wouldn't want to say the same thing about a glass sword, even though it ends up experiencing the same effect, so "break" seemed better. Maybe we want to revisit it.--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 14:19, 6 January 2023 (MST)

I can answer some of the questions.

• As far as I experienced, halberds in U5 couldn't stirke at distance 1.
• In U6 a thrown spear has a range of 4.
• Pick and scythe are both availabe in U6. The pick's icon is in the codex. Both items appear in the getiItem cheat list.
• U7 has stones as weight unit. You see that right on bottom of the paperdoll popup.
• No, bolts and arrows in U7 do have weight as well.
• Starbursts in U/ are thrown, so they must have a longer range.
• All projectiles share the range of the weapon they are used with in U7.
• In U7.5 the hint book does not take SS into account. Since nowadays SS is in all versions of the game available, +6 is correct for serpent arrows.
• Yes, the launching weapon is the ranger determinatior.
• According to the get item cheat list, no cleavers in SI.
• Yeah, the range is irrelevant in U9, it's either melee or shooting weapons.
• Magical damage is important, if an enemy can only be hit by magical weapons. All other damage types should be self-explendatory.
• Glass swords are indeed not classified as magical. They just do a shitload of damage in all the games. Thus why it is possible to kill the stony harpy with one in U7.

I hope this was helpful.--Tribun (talk) 18:35, 6 January 2023 (MST)

• What about morning stars in U5? Do you know if their targets also have to be exactly 2 away?
• Negations make things more confusing ("If you don't have SS installed" vs "If you have SS installed") but if what you say is true and players are more likely have play it w/ than w/out, maybe we should treat as installed SS as the default.
• The types are damage don't explain themselves to me all that well. I can understand how some monsters may have more or less antipathy to fire or water, but I can't even guess how lightning damage would have that sort of varying effect. And if I don't, the readers would less.

It was quite helpful, thanks. In fact, it's inspired me to include a new include a section called something like "False Information" for the clue books that give bad data.--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:08, 8 January 2023 (MST)