Talk:Great Stygian Abyss

Opposing virtues

Hello, Where does it say that the Abyss opposes all of the Virtues? Where does it say that any dungeon "opposes" any Virtue at all? I admit that has bugged me for quite some time. They're definitely anti-Virtuous in their naming, but I don't see anything particularily dishonorable about Shame, or anything discompassionate about Despise. What is this malarky?! What have I missed? --Warder Dragon 00:21, 20 November 2012 (PST)

You should go back in time and complain to young Richard Garriott! Make him rewrite the U4 dungeons to be more fitting.

Srsly though I get what you're saying. I think it is pretty clear that their intention was to be anti-virtue locations but we should track down a citation for it. Can you think of a, I dunno, less absolute wording for it? -- Fenyx4 06:46, 20 November 2012 (PST)

You got a point. This might be a good opportunity to discuss what the thinking was in 1985 that went into naming these things. My best guess is that it didn't seem very imaginative to name a dungeon with a derivative word of the name of the virtue (thus no "Dishonorable" nor "Discompassionate") (not that I find "Wrong" very imaginative, nor does it fill me with a sense of foreboding). However, I find "cowardice" would be a better than "destard" as an equal opposite to "valor" and "hythloth" isn't even a word. It's not obvious how I might improve the names of the other dungeons. I guess if I proposed "Indifference" or "Psychopathy" instead of "Despise" to Garriott, he would have turned them down. I guess his thesaurus didn't have that many antonyms. The Ultra-Mind 07:00, 20 November 2012 (PST)

For a lot of that I think he was just trying not to rub our faces in it. To me the fact that the names aren't clear-cut is more evocative.

I noticed Frabby's change and realized I had ignored the first part of Warder's question. I too am curious where it says the Abyss opposes all of the Virtues and not just Humility. -- Fenyx4 07:30, 20 November 2012 (PST)

I've looked at the revisions and I think the only thing wrong w/what Tribun had is in the summary where it has "clearly stated". I don't think it is clearly stated, but it is manifest. And while Frabby's hypothesis is very interesting, I think it's too creative for the Codex.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there should be nothing there--part of our mandate is to clear up common or likely misconceptions. I think there should be a little blurb going something like "Since Humility is the only Virtue that does not clearly have an antivirtuous dungeon, some speculate that the Abyss is that dungeon, however this is (highly speculative? uncertain? fanciful? too sexy? lunacy?).

Unless, of course, it is clearly stated. The Ultra-Mind 10:23, 20 November 2012 (PST)

We can't start wielding 'too sexy' as reasons not to have things on the wiki or we'd have to delete the whole thing! -- Fenyx4 13:20, 20 November 2012 (PST)

Not quite sure what to say. I wasn't aware of any claim that the Abyss opposes all virtues, and given the game structure (8 virtues, 8 everythings, 8 dungeons) of U4 I didn't think anyone would seriously dispute the observation that the Abyss had to be the Humility dungeon. I admit that this isn't spelled out anywhere either, which is why I wrote "arguably". A few more points to consider: Humility is the odd one out-virtue in a lot of respects. It exists outside of the three principles, i.e. its dungeon would be the one with no connection to any altar room. It's one of two that has its stone hidden outside a dungeon. It's the only one with a ruined city. Given all that, I had no problem assuming that the odd one out dungeon (Abyss) fits the bill for the Humility dungeon perfectly. It's all conjecture, of course; but I think the idea has enough merit to warrant a notion on the article. Frabby 10:36, 21 November 2012 (PST)

The point you make about Humility existing outside the principles is precisely why I've always thought it didn't have a dungeon. In U4, the allegory for Pride was the ruins of Magincia. Conversely, I can't find it clearly stated anywhere that the Abyss "opposes" all Virtues. I think that part of the infobox should just be removed.

With respect to Warder's original post, I believe he's referring to the fact that while the dungeons can be considered symbolic counterparts to the Virtues, there's nothing about them that really actively opposes them like, say, the columns in U9. At least, that's how I'm interpreting it, and if that's the case then he has a valid point. More appropriate wording might be in order for the infobox, e.g. "Counterpart Virtue" or "Associated Virtue." --Terilem 17:24, 21 November 2012 (PST)

The absence of a corresponding dungeon is what makes Humility an oddball. Frabby argues the point well, but in the end, I think it's an overreach, because IMO if it was the antihumility dungeon, we wouldn't be having this debate. It would be very obvious. Everything the NPCs have to say about it leads me to believe that's it just the place where the showdown occurs.

However, the more I think about it, and read the debates, the less appropriate it seems to say that it's the general anti-virtue dungeon. After all, except for their names, what's anti-virtous about any dungeon? How much more injustice is there in Wrong than in Deceit? We really don't have much to go on, to appraise the metaphysics of dungeons. Besides, the Abyss houses the Codex--not a very antagonistic icon, is it? The Ultra-Mind 19:24, 21 November 2012 (PST)

Granted, the dungeons don't really oppose anything in U4 (yet; later on they get more character, like Wrong being established as a prison). There is, of course, the nomenclature that establishes a connection with the virtues by giving the dungeons (which per se are antagonistic places teeming with monsters) antagonistic names in most, though admittedly not all cases. And of course they hold the virtue stones, which I regard as a big giveaway. Two exceptions stand out: The white stone of the "all principles" virtue isn't in Hythloth (instead, it's fittingly in the world's highest accessible spot), and I never found out what Hythloth supposedly means anyways; and the black stone of the "no principle" virtue is kind of hidden in the moongates, detached from the world in a sense.

I have to agree that it could be argued that Humility hath no dungeon; but given my arguments above I regard that as equally likely or unlikely as the Abyss being the Humility dungeon. Frabby 02:29, 22 November 2012 (PST)

I think I was misinterpreted a little here; what I have a beef with, mainly, are the implications of the word "opposes", and how it is clearly stated that the dungeons in some way or form oppose the Virtues. Because, well, they do not. They were named as counterparts to the Virtues, sure, but that's just fluff. There is nothing about Shame that opposes the virtue of Honor, and nothing about Destard that opposes Valor. That's a wording I'd like to see changed.

But yes, I'm still not sure where it was clearly stated that the Abyss is the counterpart to Infinity. --Warder Dragon 02:24, 25 November 2012 (PST)

Hmm... was sure I posted a link to the dungeon talk page. I think it would be more efficient to finish that issue before returning to this one. The Ultra-Mind 12:50, 26 November 2012 (PST)

And I should point out that while I originally agreed that putting shame and honour on polar opposites is a mistake, I've come to realize that mentality is Western-centric. I live in a innocence-guilt society where people are judged by their innocence or guilt. In this case, we think of honour as being a client of innocence. Other places are based on honour-shame, and there, you might do nothing wrong, but nevertheless find your honour reduced and shame increased. It seems as though OSI was aware of this. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2019 (UTC)