Talk:Dungeon

Vis a vis, the Virtues

Picking up where they left off on the Abyss talk page, there's a lot of talk about most of the dungeons since U4 being anti-virtue in nature. I've long taken this for granted, too, until now. The only arguments that I can think of for this seem too few and too weak:

1. Most (notice I didn't say "all") have names that are very incongruent to particular Virtues. Not always in direct opposition, but incongruent.
2. The Virtue stones, most of which appear to be linked to a particular Virtue, tend to be found in their counter-part dungeons in U4.
3. The columns are embedded in the dungeons, like antennas radiating their corruption (of specific Virtues?)

Did I miss anything? 1. is a bit weak, because some dungeon names aren't even words. Anyone who thinks that shame is at odds with honour, I think misses the point of honour (not that this would be the only time I've disagreed w/Garriott about issues of virtue or morality). 2. lacks the same consistency that 1. does and the stones' presence in most of the dungeons just indicates a link, not opposition.

Also, while dungeons are arguably perfect cesspools of iniquity, the only way in which they seem to oppose specific Virtues is in some of their names. Why does Wrong not teach you how to steal from widows and get away w/murder? Why isn't there some denizen in Deceit tempting you to cheat on your taxes? Can partial Avatarhood only be obtained by performing some feat in each dungeon? Did the Shadowlords have to go to specific dungeons to recharge?

For these reasons, I think that the tenuous connection that dungeons have to the Virtues should be acknowledged, but only as an afterthought, towards the ends of articles and definitely taken out of infoboxes. The Ultra-Mind 21:44, 25 November 2012 (PST)

Adding a few more reasons from U4;

1. From U4 - Altar Rooms in the dungeons match the virtue. For example Wrong has the altars of truth and love.
2. From U4 - The attributes from the Magic Orbs coincide with the virtues. Deceit gives you intelligence. Hythloth gives you all three.
3. From U5 - The members of the great council that knew the word of power for a dungeon were from the corresponding town

Dungeons definitely have connections to the virtues. If the virtue stones don't clinch it for me then the altar rooms definitely do. The connection became less important in later Ultimas (until it was reasserted in U9) but it was still there. It should definitely remain in the infoboxes as it is an important part of U4.

It is merely the severe terms of "opposition" or "anti-virtue" that I and Warder (sorry if I'm misinterpreting you Warder) have any issue with. Those words put the dungeons in a role which, although I actually agree matches the intent of the dungeons, is explicitly stated in the game. This misleads readers of the article. Removing that connection from the article or putting as an afterthought would probably be a bigger disservice.

Instead of those misleading terms I'd say "associated virtue" or "related virtue" would be more appropriate. Leave it to the reader and the game to fill in exactly what that association is. -- Fenyx4 14:02, 26 November 2012 (PST)

There's also the fact that in U5, the Word of Power for each dungeon restores its respective Shrine. I agree with you Fenyx; there is obviously a relationship between the Virtues and dungeons, and I don't believe that was ever meant to be cast in doubt. It is just the specific wording about the connection that needs to be changed. --Terilem 15:25, 26 November 2012 (PST)

Ok, I guess I could agree that Virtues and dungeons are linked, (but not that there's any connection between Deceit and intelligence) and that the opposition is pretty vague and underdone. The Ultra-Mind 19:59, 26 November 2012 (PST)

Intelligence->Truth->Honesty->Deceit. The rest line up the same. Mages have more int. Bards have more dex. Fighters have more str. (in u4 at least) -- Fenyx4 15:59, 27 November 2012 (PST)