Talk:Whirlpool

Various questions on facts

There are a few things I'd like clarification on:

1. Why does it say that U3 had only one whirlpool but U4 had several? I only know of one for each.
2. The Avatar had the option of doing the same in Ultima V: this means you have the option of reaching the Underworld via that means, right?
3. Where are they mentioned in U9? The manual? Dialogue? In-game books?
4. BTW, is a cut scene the right way to express where a whirlpool is seen in U9, or should it be an FMV?

The Ultra-Mind 17:10, 7 December 2010 (PST)

OK, answer time.

• Ultima III really only has one whirlpool, and it really travels fast. As far as my observations go, Ultima IV does have several.
• Yes, it's an option to reach the Underworld beneath Despise.
• The whirlpools are part of the story in Buccaneer's Den, and Samhaye explicitely wants the Avatar to deactivate to column to stop the whirlpools, which are ruining the island.
• It's an FMV.

Does this answer your questions? --Tribun 17:14, 7 December 2010 (PST)

1. But I don't get how one can say that whirlpools are distinctly multiple or singular. As I understand it, each game uses the same set of tiles for every manifestation of a whirlpool. Furthermore, when a whirlpool disappears from the screen, and then a whirlpool appears, who's to say that they are or aren't the same whirlpool? Unless one can say that two whirlpools have appeared on the screen at the same time. That'd take the guesswork out.
2. Ok
3. It's coming back to me
4. Is that the best expression? (Or is neither?) I've never been able to figure out exactly what a "cut scene" is, but from what I gather, ever period of normal gameplay could be called a cut scene.

The Ultra-Mind 19:41, 8 December 2010 (PST)

1. I can say for certain that there is one whirlpool in U3 at all times traveling randomly around the water. If you don't have dosbox set up properly it will travel incredibly fast and wipe out your boats in no time. (ones off screen as well). U4 I'm less certain about. The world in larger so it is more difficult to keep track and I don't recall ever having a boat destroyed without me being nearby... But I also don't remember ever seeing more than one on the screen.

4. I don't think FMV is the proper term as it doesn't refer to 3D animation. Cutscene would be an accurate term. I don't see how every period of the game could be considered a cutscene in Ultima IX. What is your definition of a cutscene? Wikipedia has it as "a sequence in a video game over which the player has no or only limited control, breaking up the gameplay and used to advance the plot, present character development, and provide background information, atmosphere, dialogue and clues. Cutscenes can either be animated or use live action footage" and thus would only refer to the parts of the game where it switches to pre-rendered 3d animation where the player has no control. -- Fenyx4 20:23, 8 December 2010 (PST)

Just to be clear some FMVs are cutscenes (Command & Conquer), some FMVs are not cutscenes (Phantasmagoria 2), and some cutscenes are not FMV (Ultima IX). -- Fenyx4 20:34, 8 December 2010 (PST)

The perspective you have on whirlpools still escapes me, but that's ok. This might be indicative, however, of the need for some rewrite.

I define "cutscene" using mental impulses that cannot be transcribed into text, or any other useful form of communication. (Maybe if I was a performance artist...) At least I used to. It seems Wikipedia has a more tangible one. However, it does spell it as a compound word (even though my browser's dictionary does not). The Ultra-Mind 13:17, 9 December 2010 (PST)

Wikipedia's definition fits very well with my definition of cutscene, as well as with the way I've seen the word used in gameplay contexts, if it is of any use...--Sega381 14:00, 9 December 2010 (PST)

Oh, and about the whirpool in U3, I agree that we don't have a way to prove that there was only one whirpool... and I'm not sure why we have to insist that there was one. We can rewrite it saying that there was at least one whirpool. In fact, there were at least two, as, if I recall correctly, there was another one in Ambrosia that was used to go back to Sosaria (though of course one might argue that it may be the other end of the same whirpool).--Sega381 14:04, 9 December 2010 (PST)

There really is only one. Someone once created a map of the overworld that shows everything, including the wirlpool. And there was only one.--Tribun 14:09, 9 December 2010 (PST)

I'm going to take a random stab at an explanation. Let me know if it clears up our perspective Ultra-Mind.

Technically there is only one whirlpool in Ultima III. That is how it is programmed. Does that mean Sosaria has only one whirlpool? Dunno. My bet is RG meant that one to represent many.

Does that clear up the confusion? If not could you explain what it is that isn't making sense? If it is then we could make it a bit more clear in the article but I'd want it to be more succinct than what I wrote above. :) -- Fenyx4 14:38, 9 December 2010 (PST)

Since you ask, it seems, Fenyx, that we see it the same way: there is only one type of whirlpool, but how many instances of whirlpools there are in Sosaria or Britannia... I'm not sure why others are so certain.

Of course, Sega brings up a good point: there is a manifestation of a whirlpool in Ambrosia, whose characteristics are different from the one that brings the party there. And how does one say it's a different one, or the same one?

And when you consider how whirlpools behave in these games, I'm wondering if their status as a "natural phenomenon" should be on the table. Nah, I don't. We should at least talk about it. The Ultra-Mind 16:57, 9 December 2010 (PST)

Guess I still wasn't clear enough. In the game Ultima III there is only one instance of a whirlpool wandering about Sosaria (ignoring Ambrosia).

However I doubt that any in character text would claim there was only one whirlpool. It's merely a limitation of the engine RG used to represent the world. Since there is no in character text talking about the whirlpool that I know of we can't really remark on that fact. But we can certainly remark on the game only having one whirlpool. -- Fenyx4 13:21, 10 December 2010 (PST)

Is it a natural phenomenon?

I'm wondering if we should consider it a natural phenomenon. Perhaps we should consider it conforming to Britiannia/Sosarian physics, but it certainly acts different from Earth physics. Here, when something gets dragged down by a whirlpool, it just goes to the bottom of the sea. Now, if it retains its former buoyancy, then it returns to the surface, but a whirlpool here doesn't act like a wormhole to other lands. I'm going to have to research their nature in U9, too. I might like to know about how they are formed, and if they did anything other than swallow ships. The Ultra-Mind 16:57, 9 December 2010 (PST)

I guess it doesn't have to be classified as natural. It probably was put that way to reflect that it is not known if somebody created the whirpools, hence its natural and not artificial. I don't think the idea was to say that it was natural as not magical, but natural as not artifical (that we know of). But it's not something really needed in the article, it can be said that its origins are unkonwn.--Sega381 09:33, 10 December 2010 (PST)

Actually I have a theory on how the whirlpools and several other anomalies formed. Not a heck of a lot to support it in canon but nothing to contradict. Sosaria used to be a series of worlds connected by powerful magic, when the gem broke that magic failed. That much we know. I think that remnants of that magic are why a good number of things seem to make no sense. This is how Britannia can be on a planet, yet the map never behaves like a sphere. It is on a planet, but it's also in a warped zone like Eodon. Except in this case the whole planet is (was) divided into two such regions. Those edges are the "seams" of where it used to connect to other worlds, not the effect of sailing around a globe. This would also offer some explanation of U6: the magics tearing at the gargoyle part of the world were altering the behavior of the seams until the Codex was stabilized.

Likewise this would offer some logical reason for whirlpools to be wormholes, another part of the magical world-hopping system now gone rogue. It's not that Sosaria's basic physics are really any different from ours, but more magic complicates things. --Anarch Cassius 12:05, 10 December 2010 (PST)

Game over misdirection in U3?

According to this trope site when you're sucked into a whirlpool, there's this "gave over" screen that displays, (search for "Fission Mailed") misleadingly. If that happened to me on the PC or Apple, I think I'd have remembered it. Supposedly in the Apple, PC, C64 and whatever else except NES versions. I take that site w/a grain of salt so can anyone confirm?--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2023 (MDT)

I remember the "watery grave" part, but This video doesn't appear to have that game over deception, so I'd say it's absent from the C64 version. Maybe someone interpreted the text as meaning game over and reset their system in the extremely short time it took the game to land you on Ambrosia. If that's the way it went, I think we can ignore it.--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 13:21, 11 June 2023 (MDT)