Talk:Ultima IV transcript by subject

Accuracy

Is this transcript reliable? How did William's dialogue here come to be changed from the original? This error appears to have begot an inaccuracy that wasn't present when Blu3vib3 originally rewrote that article. --Terilem (talk) 18:55, 9 March 2018 (MST)

If it is just about William, I admit that peanut butter disgusts me (I am not American). I added this single inaccuracy as a joke-answer to the fact that Origin Systems expressed their disgust about eating horse meat (Ultima VI gargoyles): different countries, different food habits. Oh, now that I think about it, I followed the Irish writing style rule in the NES remake transcript, expanding all instances of the verb "to be" (you are, it is, etc.), thus opposing the spreading mix between "to be" and possessive adjectives (your, its, etc.). --Abacos (talk) 11:38, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

The computer part of this transcript is based on Bluevibe Dungy's one, with minimal edits. I simply changed the order of the lines and tried to give the feeling of a more natural dialogue with the inhabitants of Ultima 4 (I would ask "Health?"/"How are you?" before inquiring about one's job). On the other hand, to my knowledge this is the only full text transcript of the NES remake (99% complete: I still have to get the legendary axe from Zircon). --Abacos (talk) 11:55, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

Wait, what? You purposefully added an inaccuracy because you're upset about the flavor of peanut butter and a reference to horse meat in a completely different game made five years later? To "see if anyone would notice"? I know I'm not around much anymore, but I think it's incredibly rude to all the people here who've put in a gargantuan effort to make sure the information presented is the most complete and accurate source of Ultima info on the Internet.

Let's strive to keep our own insecurities out of the wiki, eh? --Warder Dragon (talk) 03:55, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

I don't really know what to say, Abacos; you've given two completely different explanations and I don't see how either one is an acceptable justification. Whichever version is closer to the truth, please refrain from doing this again. I'd like to trust that every contributor is acting in good faith to ensure this wiki is as accurate as it can be.

As for the transcripts, playing with the order of dialogue lines isn't an issue; making any alterations whatsoever to the dialogue itself absolutely is. I understand you care greatly about correct grammar (as we all do), but if a transcript can't be trusted to be 100% accurate to the game it originates from, warts and all, what's the point of having it here? --Terilem (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

It was the only one inaccuracy I introduced, I admitted it, and it is anyway about flavor text, without any effect on game completion. I considered it a minor (bad) joke. It was not funny. I apologize. I would have never modified a walkthrough-relevant line, though. --Abacos (talk) 11:05, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

I still have to answer Terilem's second observation: "100% accuracy, warts and all".

Before the "internet age", if anyone wanted to get published, he or she had to write as well as possible in the first place. Therefore, readers were exposed to a high standard of language, and were implicitly invited to emulate such good level of language, if they wanted to have a chance to get published.

Today we are in the "Internet 2.0" age, when any illiterate can easily publish anything on the internet, and get read worldwide. Therefore, readers are exposed to a level of language that is getting progressively lower. People can easily consider their level of language "good enough" and relax their standards. Thus, languages are degenerating instead of evolving.

Let us now get specifically to the English language, because it is the international language. Non-native readers will read English and translate it to their native language into their mind. To a native English-speaker "it's" and "its" (for example) sound identical, but in other languages they are two very different expressions. The result is that native English-writers are often judged ignorant by the rest of the world: native speakers/writers should know their own language way better than any foreigner (see the example table below).

Therefore, I struggle to give my contribution to the improvement of the language standards. When I see that Origin System made a typo back in the Eighties, I fix it in the transcript: I am sure that they meant to use correct English, and I am sure that somewhere outside the States someone already thought "ignorant Americans!". I know that many English-natives mix "its" and "it's", for example, so I always expand the latter to "it is" (in Ireland, this is considered good writing style) and show the good example. And whenever anyone corrects a typo I made, I send him my thanks, as an incentive to keep improving the language.

In short, these are the reasons I choose "100% accuracy to grammar" (still respecting Sosarian-English, obviously: "thou art, thee, thy"...) over "100% accuracy to the source, warts and all". --Abacos (talk) 20:07, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

A wiki is not the place for pretentious grammar snobbery. Take your elitist rants to some sort of languages site. --Kahran042 (talk) 23:22, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

Okay, this is getting a little heated. There has been an issue and it's being dealt with. Let's not turn to personal attacks. --Terilem (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

Oversights by native English-writers are easily spotted worldwide: non-natives translate to their own language when they read. (SOURCE: I speak all the languages in the examples below)
English	Spanish	French	Hungarian
You're	eres	tu es	vagy
Your	el tu	ton	ja
English	Spanish	French	Hungarian
He's / it's	es	il est	van
His / its	el su	son	ja
English	Spanish	French	Hungarian
They're	son	ils sont	vannak
Their	el su	leur	uk
There	ahi	la	ott
English	Spanish	French	Hungarian
Then	entonces	puis	aztan
Than	que	que	mint

PS: you can check the accuracy of my transcript by playing Ultima IV, obviously. Bluevibe Dungy's original transcript is based on the DOS port, I think, but I am currently playing the Amiga port and the Master System port (plus the NES remake), and noting all the small differences between these versions. --Abacos (talk) 20:20, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

Abacos, the transcripts are here for reference precisely to save us the time and trouble of playing through the games just to check a specific line of dialogue. We use them for citations; it is imperative we can trust they are 1:1 copies. If there's an "its" or "it's" mistakenly written by a contributor in an article, go for your life, but leave the transcripts alone. Have you made grammatical edits to our other transcripts or only this one?

As for your "joke", "test", or whatever it was, I hope you understand its degree of importance to the U4 plot is irrelevant. The fact that an inaccuracy was wilfully introduced both into the transcript and the corresponding article is the issue at hand. The fact that you then, after nine hours, completely changed your explanation as to why it happened has further shaken my trust. Nevertheless, you have apologised and I hope something like this will never happen again.

Minor aside: I was referring to William's article when I mentioned Blu3vib3. The U4 transcript was put together by Dungy.

To end on a more constructive note: if you want to fix Origin's mistakes, perhaps release a U4 grammar patch. Short of that, make use of our sic template; this is exactly what it's for. I've used it in lore quotes frequently. --Terilem (talk) 23:27, 25 March 2018 (MDT)

No offense taken. I expressed my opinion, Kahran042 expressed his disagreement. It happens to me, too, to get heated up, so I forgive the same way I received forgiveness. Kahran042, I am sorry my opinion upset you.

It would have been better if I simply wrote "peanut butter disgusts me", without adding anything else, without trying to further explain: those four words are all I can say.

As far as I can recollect, the only transcript edits I made were when I transcribed the NES remake text straight from the game, plus two instances of "the his", that I just restored adding [sic]. In fact, I think that on the computer side I only changed the order of the lines. I also replaced the "pronoun" line with the gender in brackets: I think that is aside from the transcript proper.

I double-checked the transcripts of the other games I played, just to make sure, and I can confirm I left their grammar untouched.

The "U4 grammar patch" is a great idea, but unfortunately computer programming bores me to death. I will use [sic]. --Abacos (talk) 02:03, 26 March 2018 (MDT)

Cool. Thank you for clarifying. --Terilem (talk) 02:12, 26 March 2018 (MDT)

Thank you for your patience with me. --Abacos (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2018 (MDT)

I'm jumping pretty late here and Terilem and Warder have said pretty much everything I want to say but... Terilem thank you for catching this problem. Having errors purposefully introduced into the wiki hurts me to the core. Abacos, thank you for fessing up to it. Trust may be awhile building back up but hopefully we can get there. -- Fenyx4 19:07, 26 March 2018 (MDT)

I'm late to the conversation, but my preference would be for the transcripts to be kept as accurate as possible. I spent dozens of hours formatting and preparing the Ultima VI/Savage Empire/Martian Dreams conversations, so that we had these resources available. They are exactly as all character's speech appears in game, because they are were directly exported from the original conversation files by the Nuvie team for me. Dungy (talk) 19:02, 28 March 2018 (MDT)

The Ultima IV/V transcripts may contain some errors, as they were compiled from a non-original source (If I remember correctly, as it has been like a decade since I compiled them)

A few possible mistakes that would need addressed

I found a few things that might need those {{sic}} or references or cleanup:

• I found beggar spelled "begger".
• There are a couple of mentions of "grog" which I can't square in Ultima_IV_transcript. Could they have been part of another platform?
  • "The Grog Tap" in Trinsic. So what's The Keg Tap?
  • Vesper has an "Axe & Grog" but what about Axe_'n_Ale?

The Ultra-Mind (talk) 17:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I am pretty sure "begger" is a typo. "Grog" is the word used in the Sega Master System port. I also played the Atari ST and the Amiga ports, but I forgot whether they read "ale" or "grog". --Abacos (talk) 20:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC)