Talk:Gargoyles

in chapter "evolution in the series" is said, that only one gargoyle Sin Vraal is seen in Ultima V. Was not there two gargoyles in guarding the crown room in top level of Lord Blackthorn's palace? When in combat, once you hit them but not killed them, they split in half, like a slime. Right?

re: stone gargoyles

I would not say that the stone gargoyles in U5 are the same creatures as the gargoyles of U6--they deserve their own monster entry, IMO. They are technically a form of 'Stone Harpy'--an animate statue. We could reference them on the Gargoyle page as trivia, though? --Shadow of Light 12:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No need to. Look here: Stone Gargoyles --Tribun 12:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool beans. I should have gone looking before replying, obviously. XD --Shadow of Light 10:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• facepalms* I wrote the bloody thing too, damnit!

--Shadow of Light 10:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Would it be alright to move the description of the Stone Gargoyles off this page? I think it is sufficient to say they aren't the same thing and link 'em to the other page so they can read the description there. Fenyx4 05:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Gargoyle World != Underworld

The Gargoyles originally lived in the Underworld.

I don't recall anything suggesting the Underworld and Gargoyle world were the same world. The following entry in the Book of Prophecy implies that they are different places:

Then it is written, the false prophet shall descend deep into the bowels of the earth. And the false prophet will cause the underworld to collapse. This will cause great earthquakes to tear our world asunder, and there will be a time of plague and famine. This shall be the second sign of the end.

Note that collapse of the Underworld causes the Gargoyle world to be torn apart. This strongly implies they are different places.

Furthermore, there is daylight the Gargoyle world -- almost implying it was on the other side of Britannia, which I admit raises other questions. But there was no daylight in the Underworld.

71.224.28.93 13:03, September 30, 2009 (UTC) Voyager Dragon

• This is a rather vital point, one that bears some discussion considering how widespread the myth seems to be among the Ultima community.

As far as I can tell, it arises more or less from the following line in the U6 manual:

Though long believed to be mythological creatures, the existence of Gargoyles was discovered shortly after the first expedition into the underworld. At first, they seemed content to remain in their subterranean domain, but recently they began appearing in our world, seemingly bent on doing us great harm.

This, however, was written from the perspective of Lord British at a time when very little was understood about them. Furthermore, throughout the in-game dialogue of U6 and U7 (and its manual), the lands are frequently referred to as "our side of the world" or "the other side of the world."

As for the "implication" of the Gargoyle world being on the other side of Britannia, I would go so far as to say it's almost a certainty. Don't forget the sacrifice sequence of the U6 introduction, where Trammel and Felucca are plainly visible in the sky.

The fact is, there are so many technical inconsistencies from one game to another (mostly the world switching between being flat and wrap-around) that there won't ever be a perfect explanation for -how- the Gargoyle world existed on the other side of Britannia, but I think it's safe to say they definitely -didn't- live in the Underworld.

--Terilem 07:33, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Seems like we have enough people for a consensus especially since there have been no dissenting voices. I went ahead I made a bunch of changes to fix this. I probably didn't catch all of them since it is pretty widespread but hopefully I got most of them. --Fenyx4 16:31, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Underworld, Wingless Intellect

I think for the humans this is easily a point of confusion... the Gargoyle world (should we accept the name Tel Mur?) is accessed through the Underworld. It's probably another world like the old worlds of Sosaria, explaining the daylight. However they do fly upward to reach the Shrine at the bottom of the Abyss, it's not on the other side, it's another world connected through the Abyss like Serpent Isle is through the pillars.

As for the wingless ones I think that they are slightly less intelligent on average than humans and winged ones slightly more. To us it is hard to tell the difference, to the gargoyles it is pronounced. I suspect the wingless lack of intelligence was exaggerated in the pre-human contact society. They can be taught to speak but do not learn to do so on their own as human and winged gargoyle infants will. I suspect it was contact with the humans (an intelligent wingless) race that lead some gargoyles to try to see how far the wingless ones could progress if they were given a chance.

--71.132.209.250 18:02, October 4, 2009 (UTC)Casey Loufek

• Ter Mur means "world", which is the name used in Ultima Online for the gargoyle homeland. That having been said, I'm not sure we even need to give a name to it. I think "the gargoyle world" or "gargoyle homeland" is sufficient. It's definitely the other side of the world and not the Underworld, and I don't think the whole flat/round world thing needs explanation or elaboration. Sosaria clearly doesn't share the same rules and laws of physics as Earth, so for all we know Sosaria can be both round and flat at the same time - but we were never told in the games, so there is no need for us to try to make up our explanation. What we do know is that the collapse of the Underworld tore rifts into the ethereal void that grew larger and eventually consumed the gargoyle lands, and this should be clarified. I think much of this page needs to be rewritten.

--Warder Dragon 12:36, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Britannia is the whole world the continent is on. The "other side" of the world is a part of (the explorable) Britannia, not the Gargoyle World. And I totally don't buy the "Britannia doesn't share the same rules and laws of physics as Earth so we can it's both round and flat at the same time" cop-out explanation, especially considering that it was never stated that it's flat.

Yeah, it's said that it's flat in Ultima VI. I can't remember exactly who says it, or if it's in a book, but it's definitely stated as fact. Warder Dragon 20:29, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure? Then my bad. Origin must have been high when they decided that Britannia should become flat in the sixth game of the series, then revert back to round-mode in the next one =_=

What's wrong w/the queen?

 The appearance of a Gargoyle Queen in Ultima IX was a very controversial addition, as many fans felt it contradicted previous episodes.

First of all, we shouldn't be speaking for all fans. But if there are contradictions, I think we should say what they are.--The Ultra-Mind (talk) 11:29, 14 April 2023 (MDT)