Talk:Brigant

I'm not sure being an "it" really makes anyone a "hir". It is an it. Also, I REALLY hate the pronoun "hir". :P Dungy 14:22, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

I'm willing to change it if there's consensus. Knowing a lot of genderqueer folk who actually prefer such pronouns (which I've never seen as much of a big deal) I sort of auto-piloted (It for objects, Ze, Sie for people). I thought it sort of fitting given that Ultima III already established that there were individuals who were neither female or male.--Blu3vib3 14:29, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

Perhaps there are certain groups who prefer those terms, but they are hardly in standard use. You won't find them used in the typical print newspaper, scientific publication, or really, anywhere outside of a gender studies class. Dungy 14:33, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

I think that having a personal gender-neutral pronoun adds to the language (much like I'd like us to stop complaining about second person plurals and actually agree to have them standardized). I also like to get in the habit of using them because they do mean a lot to people who are intersexed, genderqueer or neutrois, and they aren't really that much of a bother to female/male people as far as I'm concerned. It's just being polite. At worst, I see somebody stumbling onto the article having no clue about what these pronouns mean and looking them up. In a best case scenario I see a gender-atypical person who happens to be an Ultima fan stopping by and smiling because they are reassured that their identity is an ongoing reality in all facets of life including articles about obscure RPG characters, rather than something that's just confined to gender studies debates. People who identify as outside the gender binary, or who are simply just biologically neither male or female, exist outside of feminist theory classes. --Blu3vib3 14:46, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

You can be too PC, resulting in that no one either no longer knows what you are talking about or needs too long to get it, thus severely interrupting the reading flow. Your intentions in honor, but this isn't the place for language experiments.--Tribun 14:51, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

Look, I said I'd concede in the case of consensus, which currently seems to be against me. I'm chill with the article, as I doubt the LGBT society of Trolls is really going to show up and raise a stink. At this point I'm really just trying to point out that there are people who prefer non-gendered pronouns and there's no reason to hate on them or their choice of words. As far as I'm concerned being "PC" is generally just being polite and considerate... so I really don't think you can be too PC unless you're being rude while doing it. If you have trouble understanding what I'm talking about, ask for clarification or use the Internet to look it up, I don't think I'm talking about anything too out there.--Blu3vib3 15:00, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

Blu3Vib3, I understand these issues are important to you, and as an aspiring physician, I am well aware of the myriad of delightfully different ways our reproductive organs can develop, and I can even give you the biochemical pathways that lead to such. Still, I tend to look at gender on a chromosomal, biochemical basis, and anatomical basis.Dungy 15:15, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

I understand such a view point and can respect it. One of my friends who finds the language of gender as being very important is actually a recently graduated MD focusing on genetics. I did not mean to force the issue of gender-neutral pronouns on an article about a troll with maybe five lines of dialogue, I simply felt a little awkward and defensive when I got the "I HATE the word hir" response... as I've known hirs and I don't feel their choice of language is worthy of such emphatic distaste. I know nobody means any real affront to me in this discussion, and I think it best to draw it to a close as its obviously stepped into a more of a discussion of personal ideology rather than talk of wiki-editing.--Blu3vib3 15:28, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

It was nothing personal, I've just become very thin-skinned at this topic. My current job in university includes correcting documents and webpages, before they go public. The offices are infested with woman in their 50s who still try to force through their (totally ridiculous) ideas of gender-correct language in every document, which partly makes them unreadable. Again, nothing against you and your effords, but I became easily annoyed on this topic after two months of this stuff every day.--Tribun 15:08, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

I especially blinked at "sie", since that is German for "she" (but also has many other meanings, like a group of people (Them) or formal pronoun (no English equivalent).--Tribun 14:39, 15 October 2011 (PDT)

Actually, you can argue that being PC is about being polite and considerate to some groups while being derisive to others. But I'm not sure why this issue has come up. Origin has made it clear that Brigant is an "it". The Ultra-Mind 17:04, 15 October 2011 (PDT)