Forum:Time flow between Britannia and Serpent Isle

Is there any definitive source about the speed of the flow of time between Britannia and Serpent Isle? We know that time can move at a different rates between worlds, the most clear example being between Earth and Britannia. But I think it hasn't been clearly stated regarding Britannia and Serpent Isle. In fact, I think there are contradictory facts about this.

Serpent Isle and the Lands of Lord British separated when Mondain died. We know the following events happened, which can be connected between the two worlds:

• The Ages of Darkness
  • In Britannia
    • "Several" years passed between Mondain's death and Minax attacks. Let's assume 15 years for now. And let's assume Minax was defeated in a year or so.
    • Twenty years passed betewen Minax's death and the rise of Exodus.
    • So, about 35 years between the splitting of both continents, and the rise of Exodus.
  • In Serpent Isle
    • At some point after the splitting and before Exodus, the Great Earth Serpent taught the Ophidian Virtues to the people, and they built the Ophidian society.
    • At least 3 named Great Hierophants lived in Serpent Isle. It is implied that at least two more existed. And though not clearly stated, there is a sense that several more than five Great Hierophants came to pass.
    • When Exodus appeared, he abducted the Great Earth Serpent, and shortly after, the War of Imbalance started.
    • So, between the splitting of both continents and the rise of Exodus, the whole Ophidian society was created, thrived, and started its downward spiral.
  • Now, trying to pair up data from both timelines:
    • If the Ophidian civilization was started the same year after the splitting, and if only 5 Great Hierophants existed, each of them would have lead the people, in average, for 7 years.
    • All the temples, shrines, and the big underground cities, were built in just 35 years.
    • The book History of Serpent Isle mentions that "These traditions were passed on from generation to generation." 35 years is barely one generation.
    • So, the conclusion here, which is an opinion, is that the way the Ophidian society seems to be established by the time of the War of Imabalance, implies that hundreds of years passed between the death of Mondain and the rise of Exoduse in Serpent Isle. I would say at least a hundred, possibly two hundred years. A guess: time may pass at least 5 times faster in Serpent Isle than in Britannia. This would line up the timelines.

• Between Ages
  • In Britannia
    • I think it is not clearly stated anywhere how much time passed between the defeat of Exodus and the arrival of the future Avatar back to Britannia. Or, in this case, between the defeat of Exodus and the decision to leave Brtiannia by Erstam and the other groups. However, and this is my opinion, not more than a hundred years may have passed between these two events, but it may have been more or less time.
    • When Erstam and the other settlers arrived to Serpent Isle, there were no Ophidians left.
  • In Serpent Isle
    • It is clearly stated in the book The War of Order and Chaos that 300 years passed between the start of the War of Imbalance, and the writing of the book which was after Order's victory. That is, at least 300 years passed between the start ot the War and the followers of Order left Serpent Isle, and most likely most of these 300 years were spent in the War.
  • Now, trying to pair up data from both timelines:
    • Three hundred years should have passed in Britannia for its timeline to be aligned with Serpent Isle. But there is no clear indication that so much time passed. In fact, several small clues (such as the establishment of Serpent's Hold) seem to point that no more than one or two generations passed in Britannia, let's say 60 years.
    • If time does move 5 times faster in Serpent Isle, 60 years in Britannia would be 300 years in Serpent Isle, which would line up both timelines much better.

Now, I played U7P2 several years ago, so I'm not sure about the facts. I think some facts there (the time of Gwenno's travels, the time of Batlin's travels, some storm exchanges, a vision of Lord British), seem to indicate that time passes at the same rate in both continents, but I'm not sure of it.

All of these is speculation based on some small, fragmented facts. Does anyone has a better source or facts about the time difference between both continents?--Sega381 13:07, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why I didn't make the connection sooner, but the date marked in the Serpent Isle cluebook (written by Thoxa in the months leading up to the game) is 452 New Freedom. To me, that would denote 452 SI years passing since the isle was colonized by Erstam, et al. The year in U7 is 361, which, I am led to believe, means 361 Britannian years since roughly the same point in time (unification of Britannia/Erstam's departure).

So, if we go by those dates, that works out to be almost exactly one-and-a-quarter Serpent Isle years for every one Britannian year. --Terilem 18:43, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

These arguments make sense but you're right about the latest thing Sega381 - the game does seem to indicate that time passes at the same rate in Britannia and SI due what we get about Gwenno and Batlin's presence there, and I'm inclined to think that this is how the developpers envisionned it basically... and that they just didn't thought (or possibly weren't even aware) of the 35 years supposed to happen between the death of Mondain and the rise of Exodus, probably because Ultima I to III in all fairness basically served as some basic background to retcon as needed in all the Britannia era Ultima games.

So personally I just tend to consider that Britannia and SI have time flowing at the same rate - which would also make sense considering they were part of the same world.

I don't think there is any definitve and conclusive answere that can be set to be honest - I mean even for the Earth/Britannian time rate which according to the Ultima V manual is "1 Earth year = 10 Britannia years", they obviously took some liberty in order to do Ultima VII since I don't believe it was meant to be 20 earth years between Ultima VI and VII. --Sergorn 19:08, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think we'll ever get a definitive answer. But that date in the SI cluebook is a VERY good reference. If taken the way Terilem calculated it, it means that time passes at almost the same rate between both continents. That reference, plus the events of Serpent Isle, seem to be the closest we can get to an answer. Which means that the time differences mentioned above can't be cleanly explained by the time flow difference between both continents, and probably just weren't ret-conned with the correct amount of years in mind.--Sega381 20:04, August 1, 2010 (UTC)