Talk:Earth (1423 B.C.)

"Absurd" plot details

I think these trivia points (here, Earth (1990 A.D.), and Earth (Aftermath)) cross the line into editorialization. It's one thing to mention clear inconsistencies between games and the like, but plot critiques are solidly in the realm of personal opinion and should not be here. --Terilem (talk) 06:30, 8 August 2017 (MDT)

Would it be ok if I replace the word "absurd" with the words "clearly inconsistent"? --Abacos (talk) 15:36, 8 August 2017 (MDT)

Is it inconsistent within the bounds of Ultima, though? It's already been established this is a series in which subsequent alterations to existing timelines is possible. This is to say nothing of the fact that Minax is defeated in the Time of Legends; what are the events occurring in these three ages of Earth that are supposed to have alerted her to her own demise? --Terilem (talk) 01:36, 9 August 2017 (MDT)

Now that I think about it, what was Minax plan in the first place? I re-read the manual carefully, and I could not get it; there are no Spoiler Books about Ultima 2 where one could get further information. I always assumed that Minax had a plan that spanned all human history, from Pangea until 2112 A.D.; she started "something" during Pangea, then in 1423 BC she continued "it" from where she left it, and she continued "it" on and on through all four Earth time ages. Maybe I was completely wrong.

If we accept that when the Time Doors in one age collapse all actions by Minax are averted, then there is no connection between Minax actions in different ages, because history during the centuries between them is normal. Maybe Minax tampered with four different time zones just to make a trap for the Stranger, and she was perfectly aware that when the time doors collapse her actions were averted, but changing history was not her goal in the first place?

Still, Minax is not immortal (the Gem of Immortality was destroyed), therefore sooner or later she would die of old age, and at that point the Time Doors would anyway collapse and all her actions would be averted anyway. This would make the Avatar's quest unnecessary, though. Bluevibe assumes that the Avatar is a dick; the author of "Ultima 4.2: Dude, where is my Avatar?" assumes Lord British is a dick. Shall we assume that they were dicks all over Ultima 2, too, and Minax took advantage of their dumbness? That would be really funny :D :D :D

These are anyway just speculations. What is your answer to the question what was Minax plan in the first place? (Shall we open a forum thread?) --Abacos (talk) 03:38, 9 August 2017 (MDT)

Interesting question; I guess I hadn't really given a great deal of thought to the specifics, just that she somehow manipulated human civilization into practically annihilating itself. I don't think you're wrong to be under the impression that her plan involved all of human history; I mean, monsters are present in all ages at the very least. Beyond that, I'm not sure. Maybe she was just hedging her bets in the earlier ages and the crux of her plan was 1990–2112. Unfortunately, the subsequent manuals also don't specify much behind her actions apart from causing havoc and misery among all who would oppose her.

Other than that, though, I don't see much of an issue. It's my understanding that the time doors cease to exist in all ages "simultaneously" (bear with me) once Minax is killed outside of time, which precludes her from foreseeing her own death. Don't forget the Ultima II manual says, "Whether the time of Legends is ruled by good or evil affects all other times and places", and that upon Mondain's death, "the physical laws of nature suffered a great upheaval", which suggests to me that all bets are off as far as our model of reality is concerned. From what I can see, when Minax dies, the entire reality of Ultima II is reverted; it doesn't occur chronologically, age by age. I know this flies in the face of logic, but I think those excerpts from the manual are meant to circumvent that.

You know, Ultima II is crazy enough already that your final theory doesn't seem unreasonable. :P --Terilem (talk) 06:30, 10 August 2017 (MDT)

I also imagined that Minax was opening Time Doors to random time zones looking for the Stranger, proceeding by trial and error. She ignored completely when the Stranger lived on this world alien to her Sosaria, but she wreacked havoc in every time age, just to make sure. The Bad Guys had to be intrinsecally evil in the years when Ultima 2 was released!

Ultima 2 is a huge world with huge empty spots. Think of the towers (Ultima II): they are optional areas, it is unknown who and why built them (even the manual gives just an hypothesis), and all we know is that they disappeared with Minax's death, so they must be somehow connected to her. If you would like some pure speculation, or if I were to write a remake of Ultima 2, I would propose that Minax built the towers and stored Tri-Lithium at the top, so to make her alterations of history permanent even beyond her death. The Stranger had to stop her "before" she succeeds. This speculation (it is less than a hypothesis) is supported by absolutely no facts in the game or manual, but it does not contradict anything either. Ultima 2 leaves the player's imagination completely free! --Abacos (talk) 16:37, 13 August 2017 (MDT)