Category talk:Ultima IX spells

U9 spells from earlier Ultimas

I couldn't manage to glean a clear reason from the numerous spell discussions, but what's the rationale behind segregating some of the U9 spells into their own separate articles? I'm referring specifically to ones like Charm, Cure, Douse, etc. that have appeared several times before in the series and seem to serve exactly the same function in U9. Shouldn't spells like these be merged into their respective already-existing articles, as is usually done in the case of U4-U7? --Terilem 00:20, 5 March 2011 (PST)

We came to the conclusion that the magic system of Ultima IX is so different (others would say fucked up), that this warranted seperate articles.--Tribun 03:53, 5 March 2011 (PST)

Well yeah, the magic system of U9 is different but not so much the actual spells themselves, which is the part I find strange. The end result is still the same despite the difference in methodology. I mean, Douse and Douse (U9) might as well be the same article, for instance. It just seems a little redundant to me. --Terilem 04:27, 5 March 2011 (PST)

In fact, I have little recollection at all about Ultima 9 spells, and I haven't really checked them yet. So I think we may end up merging those articles, if consensus is reached in that regard. I think the real reason behind this is the tendency of most uf us Ultima fans to separate anything related with Ultima 9. Btw, from the spellbox, it can't be gleaned what the differences in the magic system are (which is Terilem's point). Can anyone tell what are the actual differences?--Sega381 04:35, 5 March 2011 (PST)

First off, the fact that the reagents are only needed once and then never again is a serious difference, which alone would justify this. Then, spells work very different from the old ways. (light now constanttly drains mana, cure only heals part of the poison, etc...) and how they manifest is also different. It IS serious break with the earlier magic system (its even said in-game!), with had been consistent between the games, and therefore the spells have to be treated seperately.--Tribun 05:01, 5 March 2011 (PST)

Interesting. The reagents are only needed once? When, when adding the spell to the book? Or the first time the spell is cast? I dind't recall that, but I don't recall a lot of things from U9. The other differences are a little less massive, but very important nonetheless. I wouldn't say this is a completely new magic system, but it is a hevaily modified version of the one used by the previous games. It is true that the spells we have been grouping together before (from U4 to U7P2), basically work the same (I'm not sure about mana cost in U4, but that would be a detail), even if there are small variations for specific spells (targeting a group of foes or a specific foe). And the U9 spells, though similar in the infobox, are different in function. It's similar to the Sosarian Spells. There is also a "Kill" spell over there (in fact, several), but the mana costs, the classes, etc, make it a very different type of spell.

I think there are arguments for both opinions. In the end, I think it depends on the consensus we reach.--Sega381 05:09, 5 March 2011 (PST)

Yep, you only need them once to bind it to the book, and then you can spam the spell without any need for reagents. That alone would be enough to seperate this magical system from the old one. And yep, the Kill spell of Ultima IX is nothing like the earlier one for example.--Tribun 05:12, 5 March 2011 (PST)

Again, U9's magic system (a subject already covered at Ultima IX Magic) isn't the point here, it's the spells themselves: Their effects, their words of power, their required reagents (regardless of how those are used). How they get into the spellbook is irrelevant for the purpose of these particular articles; a fireball is still a fireball when it comes time to cast. My point is, of the handful of spell articles with the (U9) suffix that I've read, I've seen nothing that actually warrants them having their own pages. They're essentially just reworded versions of the existing articles, sometimes with a few minor U9-centric details that could easily be handled with a footnote. --Terilem 06:58, 5 March 2011 (PST)

Yeah, the under lying foundation of the magic system is changed in some significant ways (they canonized it as affecting everybody in the world, unfortunately), but the spells were just incorporated/carried over from the original magic system. Obviously a spell like Great Light and Day are significantly different, but there are many U9 spells that are essentially the same as before (like cure and light) or spells that are identical like light heal (with heal). I still see quite a few U9 spells that should be tied into the other Ultima spells: fireball, light heal, bolt of flame (flame wind), invisibility, summon demon (summon). I do wonder though, are frost storm and teleport really that different from hail storm and blink? - Iceblade 01:11, 15 February 2012 (EST)