Talk:Timeline of the Ultima universe

Elves in pre-history

Does someone has a reference for the elves information in the pre-history section? It seems to me that this is information made up from some fan timeline...--Sega381 23:45, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

It sounds to me someone just integrated the information from the Ultima X elves' background into the timeline. While this was an interesting way of integrating them, I just don't feel they deserve a mention in the timeline anymore that the Prehistoric Meer UO2 background considering how we're talking about a cancelled game Sergorn 06:12, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Post History

I just noticed that the post Ascension Era described in the Timeline, is also taken from Ultima X information. I think it should be removed as well Sergorn 06:51, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. At least for now, unless clear arguments against these appear, and we decide otherwise.--Sega381 14:22, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is any sense to canons the fact of a cancelled game to be honest, or else we'd have to integrate all the prehistoric Britannia fiction and some of Blackthorn's background as canon as well and it'd be a tad silly. Besides, I find it extremly unlikely that should EA decide to revive Ultima down the road they would take into account the stuff written for any cancelled games --Sergorn 15:21, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Ultima IX dating

The dating of Ultima IX's events take a "20 years after Ultima IX approach". I think this is wrong and should be edited to reflect 200 years, citing Bjorn's dialogue in the game as source (especially since there hasn't been any objection to this in the History of Britannia page, this create a discrepency between the two here).

Now granted the game itself is not pretty clear about the whole timeline thing because of the whole Dupre mentioning "being dead for twenty years" near the end, however Bjorn's dialogue is the only one that cleary and with no ambiguity give a timeline since the last coming of the Avatar, I quote: "The Avatar? He hasn't been seen in Britannia in two hundred years! He can't possibly still be alive, can he?". So I feel it would make more sense to take this date as a basis - nevermind the fact that the evolution of Britannia also makes more sense if it's 200 instead of 20 years. Thoughts? Sergorn 06:51, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

I would argue vehemently against a 200 year gap. Let's bear in mind that the Columns are also stated to have appeared 20 years prior to U9. If we give equal credit to each source for the sake of argument, that would have the Cataclysm occurring roughly parallel to the events of Serpent Isle (which actually does make sense in light of the Imbalance). However, it also means that all this would have to have happened 180 years after the Avatar departed Britannia. In SI, Lord British says that the Imbalance storms and earthquakes began not long after the party set sail. I also find it a little ridiculous to think that the Guardian might have waited an entire 180 years before making another attempt on Britannia.

Personally, I find it a lot easier to reconcile a 20 year difference than a 200 year one. I don't think one NPC's dialogue in the whirlpool of contradiction that is U9 is a credible reason to throw all that out the window. --Terilem 11:41, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not fresh on the sources, but some comments. First, let's remember that time may flow differently in Serpent Isle than in Britannia (though there may be facts against this, such as Gwenno's travels, or others for it, such as the time needed to create the whole Ophidian civilization in just the 20 years between U2 and U3). But in any event, if there are two different sources that contradict themselves with the years between U7 and U9, we have no choice but to mention both. It's not our job to fix the contradictions in the games (though it surely is a fun thing to do!).--Sega381 14:22, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

I guess mentioning both is the most reasonable thing to do, as I agree it's not our job to fix contradictions (Does that mean I can change the Shame/Despise thing regarding Ultima VII on the wiki then ? :P). I mean basically unless EA decide to do some sort of continuation of Ultima that would state/retcon for a fact how much time happened between the two games there is no perfect answer. It would means however that the timeline would have to remove any "datation" for the events related to Ultima IX though. --Sergorn 15:08, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose you're right about it not being our job to fix contradictions. Also, the possibility of timeflow differences between Britannia and Serpent Isle did occur to me, but I felt there was enough in the game to suggest that the two exist pretty concurrently (the aforementioned encounter with LB, Gwenno and Batlin's travels seeming to take place in roughly the right timeframe, the mint/lighthouse swap, etc.). --Terilem 16:11, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

This is a personal opinion of course, but I don't feel it makes sense for any relation to exists between the Imbalance and the Columns in Britannia - there is really nothing even remotely hinting at this and the whole idea that the Guardian somehow just invaded Britannia the minute Serpent Isle ended does feel a tad far-fetched to me.

Also, when taking into account how much Britannian society changed between Ultima VII and and Ultima IX, I've always felt the 200 years thing make a lot sense in that regard. To be honest I just don't see how you can possibly reconcile Ultima VII and Ultima IX with only 20 years between the two games, while two centuries would basically leave a lot of room and possibilites to explain the changes Britannia have been through.

I mean if it wasn't for this 20 years mention of Dupre casting doubt at the very end of the game, there'll be no reasons not to take at face value Bjorn's comment about the Avatar missing for 200 years. I'll agree however that 180 years for the Guardian attack to happen on Britannia is a long time even if you consider that his plan have required a lot of planning. I actually wish they would just have kept the 80 years of the Bob White Plot, since that seemed a reasonable middle ground to me and wouldn't have changed anything in terme of the plot. --Sergorn 15:08, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how the changes between U7 and U9 are relevant in supporting the 200-year theory. Isn't the whole premise of U9 that the Cataclysm had such a catastrophic effect that Britannian society had to be extensively rebuilt? That means any changes that could have happened in a hypothetical 200-year timeframe would have been more or less made moot by that event anyway. Yes, I agree that it's a bit of a stretch to believe that all these things happened around the same time, but I'm not the one who came up with that idea; U9 did, the moment it suggested that Dupre's death and the Cataclysm are both meant to have occurred 20 years ago. I still feel that it's a better alternative than potentially invalidating an entire game with a 200 year gap, however. I don't think many will argue that consistency is one of Ultima IX's strengths, so the fact that we now have to somehow incorporate it into the wiki in a logical fashion is no mean feat.

As for the Imbalance/Cataclysm thing, let me make it clear that I absolutely do not hold the belief that there is any connection whatsoever between the two. I was merely pondering it hypothetically and I regret not using a clearer choice of words to convey that. On the contrary, I prefer to simply pretend U9 never existed. When it comes to the wiki, however, that's not my call to make. --Terilem 16:11, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Granted, about the whole Cataclysme premise and how it changed society - but it still feels to me that that there were much more change that could easily be explained in a 200 years gap, and not just with the Cataclysm~; such as the fact that Virtue returned to the forefront of Britannia live, the way magic evolved, the return of the Moongates and so on. Also (though this is more a personal impression), I've always got the sense from both the game and the manual that Britannia knew a period of peace before the Columns rose, which is why the idea that it happens right after Serpent Isle feels wrong to me.

But it all bodes down to a simple thing really : if one want to craft a consistent and canon lore, you'd either have to ignore either Bjorn's or Dupre's line - I prefer to ignore the second, but it's just my view of thing.

However I don't undestand how having a 200 year gap would invalidate anything? I mean there was 200 years as well between Ultima VI and Ultima VII anyway. --Sergorn 16:41, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Ultima Underworld

I've got two doubts about the Ultima Underworld related information:

1- What's the source for stating Cabirus first name as "Arthur"?

2- Can we be certain that this Baron Almric is the 3rd?

It might be unlikely that he is the original Almric, but for al we know it could be easily the 2nd, 4th or 5th. There is no attribution I can find to say it is a particular Baron. Artic Blaze Dragon 05:55, 1 November 2010 (PDT)

References and Serpent isle

Ok, I'm usually not very concerned with references and speculation, but there are quite a few things here that are qu8estionable at best, like the destruction of Skara Brae. It seems to happen way to early. We know that it happened before Batlin formed the fellowship, but that's about it. Adding Serpent Isle dates would also be cool, there is little here about it. Maybe it should be in a separate article though... - Artic Blaze Dragon

I'd be happy if you could help with the timeline. I'm pretty sure there are things that have been just made up, and others that need references to hold water or to be better rephrased. About SI, I think there are very little absolute dates, though in fact there are some. Maybe in a new section for now, in this same article? Otherwise, the article would have to be retitled "Timeline of Britannia".--Sega381 18:45, 14 December 2010 (PST)

Well, I'm trying to make a more readable transcript of SI so after it is done it might be easier to do so. I also got the Serpent Isle hint book on ebay last week I just need to understand the SI calendar to create a paralel article.

I suppose that in regard to the main timeline is a matter of starting reading point by point and checking for references. Not an easy task... Artic Blaze Dragon 14:37, 15 December 2010 (PST)

With regards to Skara Brae, I'm inclined to think the destruction occurred comparatively closer to U6 than U7. Discussing Horance with Quenton in U7 seems to imply the former's descent into madness and subsequent possession by the liche all happened within a relatively short timeframe (at least in the context of a two-century gap).

Of course, you're right in that putting a specific date on the events as done in the timeline can only be inappropriately speculative. No dates should be that detailed without hard facts to support them. --Terilem 16:39, 15 December 2010 (PST)

Just a note that today's Gallery addition over on the Ultima Codex has this timeline tidbit, shown to the right. This seems to say that Ultima IV began only 250 years prior to Serpent Isle, which throws the dating off by ~150 years. I'll let someone else look at trying to integrate this, until I get more time available. --Browncoat Jayson (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

So according to this timeline, the calendar started between U1 and U2. Is there actually a source that says it began with the unification of Britannia, or has that been an assumption? In any case, the times given correspond as the following years:

• circa -138 (assuming no year 0): Ultima I
• c. 13: Ophidians and Ultima II
• c. 63: Imbalance War and Ultima III
• c. 113: Emigration from Britannia/settlement of Serpent Isle between Ultima III and Ultima IV

This puts U4 somewhere between 113 and 137 (assumed to be closer to the former, given Erstam's awareness of the Quest of the Avatar).

One significant discrepancy is that it shows 150 years between U1 and U2, whereas the U4 and SI manuals say it was only a few years. Another is that it has 50 years between U2 and U3, whereas the U4 manual says 20 years. Interesting to note that it considers U7 to have taken place over approximately 6 months. --Terilem (talk) 05:33, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Both the U3 and U4 manuals reference 20 years of peace between the death of Minax and the rise of Exodus, which suggests Minax's defeat was circa 0043. What we don't know is how long it took the stranger to return to Sosaria or complete his/her quest in either case. It's conceivable, for example, that Minax's oppression could have continued for many years before the start of Ultima II.

Additionally, I've often though that placing year 1 at the foundation of Britannia was arbitrary, and I don't recall it ever referenced by any game. IMHO it made more sense if the calendar followed the regnal year [1] system, which would begin when LB took the throne. That doesn't quite account for the 150 difference between U1 and U2 though.

Also, note that there were approx 2.5 years between the releases of Ultima 4 and 5. If we go with the 1:10 Earth:Britannia ratio, that equates to 25 Britannian years. Since U5 starts us at 0139, U4 could have started at 0114, which fits in your proposed timeline quite neatly. Mcmagi (talk) 06:29, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

First and foremost, welcome to the Codex! Great to have you on-board. Edit: Welcome back Voyager, I should say :)

You've brought up some good points I hadn't considered. While I'd hesitate to rely on our real-world years in calculating Britannian time (for example, the 1:10 ratio doesn't hold up with U7), your rationale for the timing of Minax and Exodus makes sense. Plus, the timeline does say circa Ultima II, which suggests there's some latitude for that period. On further consideration, too, with the extensive time-jumping of U2 I think we can pretty much say all bets are off as far as the length of Minax's reign is concerned.

Alternatively, given those first two entries on the Origin timeline don't specifically refer to events in U1 and U2, we could always mitigate the issue somewhat by not using specific years for Mondain's defeat and Minax's appearance, as is currently the case in the article.

Regardless, this is roughly where we stand after taking your notes into account:

• c. -0138: Ultima I
• c. -0135: Minax begins her oppression
• c. 0013: Ophidian culture takes root on Serpent Isle
• c. 0043: Minax is defeated (Ultima II)
• c. 0063: Exodus rises, causes Imbalance War
• 0063–0113: Ultima III, Britannian unification
• c. 0113: New Sosarian settlement
• 0113–0137 (c. 0114): Ultima IV

--Terilem (talk) 02:20, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Terilem :)

So, I totally agree that in most cases we can't rely on the 1:10 ratio. It definately doesn't make sense for the first or third trilogies. However there are a few reasons why I thought it may apply here:

1. I've noticed the U5-U6 gap closely follows it. The difference between 0139 and 0161 is 22 years, and it was approx 2.2 years b/w their release dates of 3/88 and 6/90.
2. U5 is when the 1:10 ratio was first established (in the Folklore section of Book of Lore).
3. Doing the same math for U4-U5 results in a year that fits within the proposed timeline.

Granted, it's inductive reasoning and not hard facts, but collectively the data points above seem to support it.

A few other comments and observations:

• Regarding U7 taking 6 months, how were the Oct 0361 and Aug 0362 dates for the game's start and end derived? I know several in-game sources indicate 0361 for the current year, but I couldn't find references to the months.
• IMHO despite the fact that it matches the Origin timeline, the 150 year gap between points in U1 and U2 seems excessive. I don't think there's much we can do about that though.
• We don't have a significant event associated with year 1. While I still fell the regnal year system makes the most sense, it's a very tough sell given the 150 gap. Maybe this is the year Mondain was defeated? (pure speculation though)
• If we assume that the Serpent Isle year of 452 in the clue book is cannon, then we can deduce that 450 Serpent Isle years roughly equates with 250 Britannian years, which is a 9:5 ratio. Formula: SI = 9/5 (B - 113) + 1.
• The other possibility of course, is that the Origin timeline is in Serpent Isle years (since all the events are relevant to Serpent Isle), in which case "452 New Freedom" is in conflict with it. Mcmagi (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You're right, that would be quite a coincidence. Don't get me wrong, I see no reason why it doesn't work for the Age of Enlightenment (in fact, I like that it so neatly fits). I guess I tend to be wary of justifications that aren't consistently repeatable, but that might be too high a bar to set for the whole series. As we know, consistency isn't Ultima's biggest strength and we're working with relatively limited information to reconcile these issues, so maybe we have to take what we can get when it works.

Regarding your other points:

• Yeah, as far as I can tell there are no sources for those specific months and therefore I don't think they should be here. They appear to originate from Underworld Dragon's chronology, which I assume was the basis for this timeline. There are a couple of ledgers in U7 that end at January 0361, but that doesn't tell us much. The most I can find is that it's currently autumn (autumn foliage, Lord Heather says it's nearly winter). The August 1, 0362 end date definitely seems to be speculation/fan fiction, unless I'm missing something from Underworld II. As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, there are also some oddly specific dates elsewhere on the wiki timeline that don't seem to have any supporting evidence.
• I agree about 150 years being excessive; that's why I think it might be best to sidestep it by not providing an explicit time frame for that period (i.e. we wouldn't start specifying years until 0013 onward).
• With your suggestion about the regnal year system, I thought you might have been alluding to LB becoming Sosaria's lone monarch after the other three lands disappeared. That doesn't necessarily have to coincide with the end of U1, so it might work. If we don't mention a huge gap between U1 and U2, it becomes that much simpler. Of course, there's nothing that says we have to couple an event with year 1 on the timeline; it could be left to the reader to draw their own conclusions.
• I imagine your formula will have implications for the Serpent Isle Calendar article.
• I did consider the possibility of the Origin timeline being from Serpent Isle's perspective; however, given the time frames of Batlin's escape and Underworld II match up with the UU2 and SI intros, I assumed the rest was in Britannian years. --Terilem (talk) 05:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Batlin's death in Serpent Island

Shouldn't be the escape of the Banes of Chaos the cause of his death? They killed him as they escaped from their prison. All this was caused by using the wrong Serpent carvings and the ill-prepared Soul Prisms (he forgot to treat them with the water from the Shrines of Chaos). The Guardian left him to die, because of his betrayal. --Arthgon 02:31, 28 November 2012 (PST)

You're quite right. Fixed now. --Terilem 03:07, 28 November 2012 (PST)

If it is okay, I have inserted this as well: Batlin's quest for achieving (can't believe that I wrote it wrong here) immortality comes to an abrupt end as and The Guardian angry at Batlin's betrayal leaves him to die. --Arthgon 03:23, 28 November 2012 (PST)

Just saw the changes. Yes. That sounds much better, indeed. --Arthgon 00:14, 30 November 2012 (PST)

Lord Draxinusom dies?

Did Lord Draxinusom really died in battle or is it just one of the cruel psychological torments by the Guardian? For there's no proof that the armies of the Guardian actually invaded Britiannia. Only that they have invaded the Castle of Lord British. Or am I wrong? --Arthgon 09:58, 28 November 2012 (PST)

You're right, that was inappropriately speculative and it has now been removed. --Terilem 19:14, 29 November 2012 (PST)

In my defence...

This timeline was ported from the one I wrote on wikipedia many, many years ago, based on my own notes, and at that time, they hadn't cancelled Ultima X yet...so, anyway, I thought I'd take a look at cleaning some of this up...

QuentinGeorge (talk) 09:51, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Timeline flaws

Two facts happen right after to each other, but this is totally ignored in this timeline:

• Mondain uses the ruby gem against itself, creating the Gem of Immortality.
• The Stranger uses a Time Machine to step outside of natural time and penetrate Mondain's stronghold. In the ensuing battle, the Stranger shatters Mondain's Gem of Immortality and then slays Mondain. Three stray shards of the Gem are accidentally scattered.

Therefore, the following timeline is more correct than what is in the main timeline page. --Abacos (talk) 01:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Abacos, your edits are contradicting established lore. For example, it is stated in the SI manual that the other three Sosarian continents disappeared upon Mondain's death, not Minax's. That you've decided to retcon U1 as the work of Exodus rather than Mondain is similarly troubling. Rationalizing the Ultima timeline is no mean feat, but your opinions can't take precedence over canonical sources. --Terilem (talk) 09:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The Age of Mondain
Mondain begins vile experiments among his own followers, forming hybrid creatures such as minotaurs, goblins and lizardmen. The depredations of Mondain puts the study of the arcane arts into low esteem. Various Lords of Sosaria outlaw the practice of magic. Seeking allies to continue his fight against the eight lords of Sosaria, Mondain recruits help from "starwalking monsters of unparalleled savagery." Minax is born. At just eleven years of age, Minax is apprenticed to Mondain. While still young, Minax becomes Mondain's consort. Exodus is "conceived." British drives Mondain from his corner of Sosaria ("Akalabeth"), and becomes Lord British. Mondain uses the ruby gem on itself, creating the Gem of Immortality. The Stranger uses a Time Machine to step outside of natural time and penetrate Mondain's stronghold. In the ensuing battle, the Stranger shatters Mondain's Gem of Immortality and then slays Mondain. Three stray shards of the Gem are accidentally scattered.
The Age of Minax
Shortly after Mondain's death, the time doors appear in Sosaria. Approximately ten years after the defeat of Mondain, Minax, now grown, begins her plans by travelling through the time doors to the era outside of time known as "Time of Legends." The Stranger appears in Sosaria again. The following events take place outside the normal timeline. In New San Antonio, the Stranger purchases Enilno, the Quicksword, from Sentri the Swashbuckler (1990 A.D.). After obtaining a spaceship from Pirate Harbour, and visiting Father Antos on Planet X, the Stranger obtains the magical Force Field Ring from an old man in New San Antonio (2112 A.D., and 1990 A.D.). In the place of Legends, outside of time itself, Minax is defeated by the Stranger within the castle Shadowguard. Timeline resumes normal flow. The release of magic at Mondain's (Minax's???) death causes great upheaval, rending time and space, and three quarters of the world disappears. At least some of the lands are later found to still be in reach: the Lands of Danger and Despair becomes the Serpent Isle. Manuscript fragments are found in the wreckage of castle Shadowguard. The writings hint that Minax and Mondain had been lovers, and produced an offspring, but little more.
Between the ages of Minax and of Exodus
20 years after Minax's defeat: The Isle of Fire rises from the sea as molten lava spewing from underwater volcanoes while monsters begin attacking Sosarian settlements and a pirate fleet appears at sea, sweeping all other ships of commerce before it. Various heroes enter the service of Lord British, ridding the local realm of monsters, and earning the title "Knight". Shamino becomes ruler of his own kingdom in the Lands of Danger and Despair. The presence of sea monsters confirmed as the frigate Pembroke is sunk by one in plain sight of a small armada. The Stranger appears in Sosaria for the third time, entering through the moongate known as the "Siege Perilous". Later, the Stranger leaves this age using a Time Machine and going back to the age of Mondain.
The Age of Exodus
Exodus summons the Balance Serpent (also known as the Great Earth Serpent) from its home in the Ethereal Void, and it takes position at the harbor entrance of the Isle of Fire. On the Serpent Isle, the War of Imbalance breaks out. A ship is found sailing abandoned, devoid of crew, with the word "Exodus" scrawled in blood on its deck. Lord British commissions several people to map out the land in preparation for whatever evil onslaught Exodus is preparing. The Time Lord, in the guise of the cartographer Hawkwind, discovers the functioning of the moongates. Before he can communicate the knowledge, he is attacked and gravely wounded outside the Castle of Lord British. Shamino returns from his mission of mapping the interior of Castle of Fire, on the Isle of Fire. The experience renders him temporarily insane. The Stranger reappears in Sosaria, and recruits three local adventurers for aid. The lost island of Ambrosia is rediscovered. The Stranger consults with the Time Lord for the first time. The Stranger and his companions destroy Exodus in his castle. This triggers a violent set of cataclysms that rearranges much of the land, destroying several cities in the process. The final forces of evil are defeated in a vast battle on the Bloody Plains. Thousands of soldiers die on both sides in the conflict.