Talk:Banes of Chaos

Are Fawn, Monitor and Moonshade really anti-Order?

In the trivia section the line "It is appropriate that the three cities the Banes destroy represent the anti-forces of Order: Monitor was apathetic toward the Goblin threat (the knights largely cared about their own pride), Fawn was prejudiced against the ugly and those who challenged the Temple's rule, and the mages of Moonshade were ruthless in their rivalries." either needs to be rewritten or removed. The articles on these pages don't support these anti-Order philosophies. If this line is not subjective, then it should at least be rewritten to further justify itself. AngusM 21:18, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah that passage seemed dubious to me as well. There's a lot of this kind of superfluous gap-filling and speculation throughout the wiki and it really needs to be scaled back, in my opinion. --Terilem 06:10, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? --Warder Dragon 08:00, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Easier said than done. I've seen initiatives to curb this behavior before, but there still seems to be a steady supply of the kind of inappropriate material that this seems to be. AngusM 21:28, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

This is true - I know exactly what you mean. I admit I'm not sure how to approach the... problem... though. --Warder Dragon 21:52, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well I do. But unfortunately that solution would be... most ungentlemanly. I'll not do that to myself. I'm just going to proceed with the same old relatively conservative and methodical formula, in quiet dignity, and just hope that the only reason it hasn't caught on yet is because I have not persevered enough thus far. AngusM 03:27, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's been long enough that no one's had anything good to say about it, so I'll remove the line and the unsightly banner. AngusM 03:14, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Bane Identities

Is that me or attributing the possessions of Banes to Angus, Gwenno and Cantra feels a tad too speculative?

I'm just to the point where you read the Journal of Batlin's accomplice. The first bane mentionned where a Ice beast was slain - make it sound more like the Bane was directly captured once set free of its cage. The skullcrusher one is more ambiguous but it's also a possibilty.

Now one point of note is the last one which is said to have eluded them in the north and went south. Now personally I've always had the feeling that Bane escaped from the prison, possessed Gwenno which was in turn killed by Hazard's men (and thus not Batlin's which were not facing the "Sorceress" as far as I recall - so they couldn't have captured the Bane upon Gwenno's death) and then went south where it eventually possessed Cantra. I feel there is some sense to it, especially since that would explain why Cantra's dialogue when possessed just go "bloog blood everywhere" like Dupre and Gwenno.

Regarding Angus - there is not even a mention of Batlin's men going to Sleeping Bull in a Journal. Not this is a possibility (altough i figure this could also be the Bane of Wantoness who would have possessed Gwenno, Angus and then Cantra) but there doesn't seem to be a source hinting Angus might have been possessed, beside the fact that he has obviously vanished.

Now a lot of this is speculative on my part I'd admit - but no more than the article itself (unless there is some usecode fragments or elements in the clue book I don't know of) --Sergorn 15:23, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to be leaving for 2 or 3 days, starting t-minus 1 hour, so I'll check when I get home, unless someone else has access to the clue books. I'm going to start adding trivia from the two Ultima VII hintbooks soon. Dungy 15:55, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

I remember fact-checking this article and removing some rather dubious inferences, but I think I just went along with whatever I couldn't disprove, as it was one of my first edits and I didn't want to rock the boat. I'll admit it's quite difficult to piece together with any certainty how events unfolded, given the vagueness of the journal you refer to. It's also quite unfortunate that Cantra can't be healed after she is resurrected, otherwise the type of water needed would have confirmed which Bane she was inhabited by.

With regards to Gwenno, no she was definitely not killed by Batlin. Bizarrely, this article originally implicated him in her death (even claiming he paid Hazard's men to do it, despite the fact that she ambushed them), but I corrected that glaring factual error in my edit. On careful consideration, I suppose you may have a point that Wantonness could have then moved on to Cantra, given the short timeframe between Gwenno's death and Cantra's disappearance.

As for Angus... not only are Batlin and Palos recorded as guests in the Sleeping Bull register, they are the focal point in Devra's recollection of what happened the night Angus disappeared. One night there was a violent commotion in the cellar and the next morning all three were gone. The reason behind the scuffle is unclear. It does seem possible that a Bane possession was at the root of it, but considering this apparently happened six months prior to the game, I'm not sure about that. It could simply have been that Batlin stole Ensorcio's jawbone, tried to access the Serpent Gate through the cellar of the Sleeping Bull and was caught by Angus.

You're right, a lot of it does come down to speculation and educated guesses. I can see a few possible scenarios with the Banes, but there is little in the way of hard facts to say for sure in any case. --Terilem 08:03, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I mean there are not bad speculations by any means - they're pausible I guess. But we should probably stick to hard facts or any case not speculations.

Regarding Angus it nevers gets clear what the reason of the scuffle was (I wonder if that is something that got cut?) - but I've always figured it had something to do with the passages of Silverpate considering how everyone vanished in the basement. I kind of expected to find Angus' body down there actually. Too bad they didn't think of it

As for Cantra - the thing for me is that okay, you can't cure her. But the game and the usecode give her definitly the lines for the Discipline Bane, so why should we assume that she was not taken by the discipline bane but by some other just because it feels more "convenient" to have three named NPCs for each bane ? I mean it's not like the developpers couldn't have put her another line if they wanted it: I mean the Cantra quest and cure IS in the usecode so I do think this is a bug if she has these lines, it's just that they forgot to put the trigger to have the water affect her. So I say this should be considered as fact, since in the end this is how it is presented in the game --Sergorn 08:25, October 12, 2010 (UTC)