User talk:Terilem

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Welcome[edit]

Hi, welcome to Editable Codex! Thanks for your edit to the Talk:Gargoyles page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Carcerian (Talk) 07:34, November 16, 2009

Wiki Admin[edit]

Forum:Administrator - Just wanted to bring your attention to this in case it goes scrolling off the recent changes. It'd be nice to have everyone's input. Fenyx4 14:34, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yes.[edit]

You need to do more descriptive writing here on the Codex. Quite fond of your grammatical overhaul on the Ethereal Void! --Polygoncount 18:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate that :) I've had that one in the works for quite some time; I just took awhile to actually call it finished and put it up. I noticed you had made some changes to the article in the meantime so I tried to incorporate those as much as I could. Glad you enjoyed it! --Terilem 18:40, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Global searching w/U6Edit[edit]

Since you seem to be an aficionado on U6Edit, I need to ask you a quick question: if you want to search for any piece of text, and you want to search throughout all the text in the game, is that possible? It seems to me that if you are looking for a string, you need to know where to look (the NPC who said it, the sign it's on, etc.). AngusM 04:39, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, unfortunately I haven't been able to find a way to do global searches and I'm not sure if it's possible :( U6Edit's strength is the guaranteed completeness of dialogue for any NPC you're specifically looking for. I'll try to investigate more, but it seems there's no perfect solution when it comes to U6. I wish Origin had adopted the Usecode format earlier; it makes things so much easier. --Terilem 04:46, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, well... it is open source. And the mainstream dialogue is not in plain text for this game. There also hasn't been any activity on that project in several years. I guess it's incumbent on whoever wants that global search ability to implement it. AngusM 18:34, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Spell article's name poll[edit]

Hey there, I think you may want to contribute to the Forum:POLL: Spell article's merging policy. Thanks!--Sega381 17:01, 6 March 2011 (PST)

One request[edit]

Seeing that you replace various paperdoll pictures, one request. Could you please make sure that the person in the picture stays the same? I know that means using BG instead of SI, but I would appreciate it.--Tribun 18:38, 22 March 2011 (PDT)

I've been doing that. I assume you're referring to the Magebane image, in which case the paperdoll was replaced with the canonical blonde female Avatar from SI over the fan-made one from Exult. Otherwise yes, I will continue matching skin colour and gender. --Terilem 18:44, 22 March 2011 (PDT)
That actually is Jaana. I also use pictures which feature Katrina and Julia.--Tribun 18:46, 22 March 2011 (PDT)
Weird, it's been awhile since I actually played using Exult but I remembered it having an "improved" blonde female Avatar paperdoll. At any rate, that Jaana paperdoll was still fan produced and preferably shouldn't be used if there is a canonical substitute available. Whether or not it's the same person shouldn't really matter when the subject in focus is a piece of equipment anyway. --Terilem 19:02, 22 March 2011 (PDT)
Ok, I admit that for the Jaana paperdoll. However, for the other two they used the art from the original inventory screen for the head. --Tribun 19:09, 22 March 2011 (PDT)
I have a request/criticism: If pictures are being replaced, is it possible to use ones WITHOUT that shitty antialiasing-whatever-you-call-it-effect? It kills a lot of detail on the original art. --polygoncount (Polygon Dragon -==(UDIC)==-) 22:40, 22 March 2011 (PDT)
Certainly. I've always been ambivalent about whether to use the scaling or not. The kind I see used in screenshots here is usually of pretty poor quality, but I thought the one I've been using did a pretty good job so I went with it. However, I realise scaling isn't everyone's cup of tea now matter how good it is, and I don't mind sticking with a purist approach. --Terilem 23:03, 22 March 2011 (PDT)

Yeah, but a pure point-scaler looks ugly as hell as well. I can live quite well with using the scalers that Exult offers in order to make the pictures less pixelated.--Tribun 08:44, 23 March 2011 (PDT)

Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree. I'm anti-smooth-scaling for these games because I really prefer to see what the designers originally intended... resolution wasn't what it is today, but it feels to me like taking a work of art and saying "Here, look at it through these 3-D glasses!" The older (U5 and back) Ultimas are SO limited in their graphic capability that mods like the U4 Upgrade are a welcome change; in those cases, it's more like looking at different chess pieces. I dunno, just my .02 cents. With the character portraits it's not so big a deal, but with the paperdolls, it just seems like overkill. --polygoncount (Polygon Dragon -==(UDIC)==-) 11:51, 23 March 2011 (PDT)

Section Headers[edit]

I feel I should talk with you directly. I'm well aware that game titles are put in italics. What I don't know is why you felt this should be expanded to section headers. They weren't part of the rule (as far as I know) and I'll remove the italics if there isn't a godd counter-argument.--Tribun 23:20, 29 September 2011 (PDT)

Thank you for the message. My reason is because it's grammatically proper to do so, and headings are standard English. Have a look at Wikipedia for any number of examples of this. Do you have a particular objection to it? Why does there have to be a good counter-argument just to warrant following grammar standards? I would in fact assert that there should be a good counter-argument for not doing it this way.
If you would like to have a rule defined specifically for headings one way or another, I'm sure it won't be a problem to get a few regular contributors to come to a consensus about it; I believe that is the preferred conduct, rather than engaging in an edit war. --Terilem 23:46, 29 September 2011 (PDT)
It's because before you started it, no section headers were touched by formatting, it was a sort-of unwritten rule. I'd accept it if there indeed is a rule made by concensus. (Maybe it's because I'm German and like clear rules).--Tribun 01:09, 30 September 2011 (PDT)
Fair enough. Conversely, I didn't foresee that there would be any issues if I incorporated headings into the guidelines we'd already decided upon for article content. I'll hold off on italicizing headings until a consensus can be reached. --Terilem 01:16, 30 September 2011 (PDT)
Ok, let's do it this way.--Tribun 01:24, 30 September 2011 (PDT)

Wikia[edit]

While you're listing the files Wikia does not have permission to host, you may as well tell them the entire contents of

I know I'm the guy who uploaded most of those images without your permission, so I fully recognize the irony of helping you with this endeavor.

Yeah, I might do that. The reason why I originally only listed the files I did was because I can authoritatively claim ownership, since I drew them. I didn't want to presume to speak for the other two portrait artists who were on the team.
And for the record, I don't mind at all having those images hosted here. This wiki is 100% for the benefit of the Ultima community, not to help boost Wikia's bottom line. I hope I haven't implied that you did something wrong by uploading them, because that certainly isn't the case. Having said that, I did have to chuckle at the irony. :P --Terilem 23:39, 5 November 2011 (PDT)
Its cool. I understand your beef is with Wikia and not with me. If someone had ownership of a document or file here, and they asked me to take it down, I'd do it willingly. Dungy 02:43, 6 November 2011 (PST)
You ever hear back from them? Or are they playing the same game with you, refusing to do anything that might hurt their bottom-line? Dungy 12:23, 11 November 2011 (PST)
Yeah, I got a message back from Sannse, who just gave a canned "we're happy to investigate" response and linked me to Wikia's Terms of Use. I'm going to try emailing their copyright agent next. Let's see how many bureaucrats I can get deferred by. --Terilem 19:18, 11 November 2011 (PST)

Pagan music[edit]

As someone who is a little more interested than most in Ultima music, I really like what you did with the section on Pagan music. But I have some things I want to bring up:

  • A while ago some guy on a talk page said that he had some musical aptitude/training but not enough to be any kind of authority on it. Was that you? These edits don't reflect skills so novice. (I don't know jack about music theory, so it's for you to tell me)
  • Maybe it could do w/a bit of dumbing down (and when it comes to music commentary, it doesn't get much dumber than me). I don't see "minor-key string", "choral arrangements" or "timpani" being dumbed down, but if that's the most important way that the section expresses the gravity of the gloom (and it's lots and lots of gravity!) then it loses some of the audience. For those of us fit for treason, stratagems and spoils, we only have the adjectives "ominous" and "desolate" to explain the impact.

The Ultra-Mind 09:57, 30 April 2012 (PDT)

  • Yeah, that was me. I'm a musician, but I wouldn't feel qualified to give a lecture on the ins and outs of advanced music theory, for example. However, I feel I know enough to give a broad overview of the characteristics of a given Ultima soundtrack beyond a couple of superficial sentences, while not being able to delve into minute technicalities (which would probably just exacerbate your second point anyway).
  • Hopefully my latest edits address your concerns; I'm not really sure how I might break it down into simpler terms than what's there. --Terilem 16:14, 30 April 2012 (PDT)
Yep. That seems to describe the Pagan atmosphere I remember. The Ultra-Mind 07:17, 3 May 2012 (PDT)

Ultima 5 Walkthrough[edit]

Hi Terilem!

Thanks for the revision of Ultima 5 walkthrough. I was too much informal, that's true --Abacos 15:45, 17 May 2012 (PDT)

...And I appreciate the fact you don't object the pictures of the female characters on the walkthrough :-D (I just skipped Gwenno because she looks overweight, at least from the point of view of an European like me, although she's one of the best characters, due to her high Dexterity). --Abacos 16:05, 17 May 2012 (PDT)

Of course I don't object to Lazarus portraits being used where they're applicable, but as I said on the talk page, I'm not sure they should appear in a walkthrough that only covers the original U5. However, I left them there for the time being in case others wanted to chime in on the discussion first. --Terilem 16:13, 17 May 2012 (PDT)

Ultima IX Cut Viedos[edit]

WOW! Where did you get these shots? I didn't manage to find them, and they are really good quality!--Tribun 05:10, 16 June 2012 (PDT)

Rescued them from the hard drive I used back when I ran my U9 website. The shots of LB, the Avatar, and the Guardian were released directly by Origin. The image of the Avatar summoning Pyros and the LB/Avatar ending pic came from Michael Morlan's old portfolio website; pretty rare I think, because I haven't seen them anywhere since. Always happy to help fill in pieces of the puzzle. --Terilem 05:53, 16 June 2012 (PDT)

Serpent Isle Character Photos[edit]

Good job with the photos and information about the models used for the Serpent Isle NPCs. Where did you find that information? Dungy 15:52, 24 August 2012 (PDT)

Got the photos awhile back from Steve Powers' Picasa album. He'd already captioned each person with their name, so from there all I had to do was match them with their corresponding Serpent Isle portrait. --Terilem 16:32, 24 August 2012 (PDT)

Who to ask?[edit]

I wanted to use a shot from a Lazarus trailer (of a moongate, which I turned to red) for a future expansion of a U6P mod where a shot that accompanies a text box at discovery of a red gate, is replaced. However, I better want to know if that's OK.

Who to ask? Or is it enough if I get the OK from you? Hope you can help me out there.--Tribun 19:01, 2 February 2013 (PST)

That trailer is ten years old and I'm afraid I can't remember who was responsible for what, so I'd have no idea who to ask; certainly not me, I was just a 2D artist. Can't you just do your own original art? It would be far less complicated in that regard.
Also, I see you've used more Lazarus portraits for your mod. I'm going to have to ask you give Nytefall and myself credit for those in some way, as they aren't really your own work and not doing so would be considered plagiarism. She drew Charlotte, Sutek, David, Sir Simon, Lady Tessa, and Dufus; I drew Sin'Vraal and Captain Johne. --Terilem 02:34, 4 February 2013 (PST)
Ok, I will do so. Thanks for telling me. I don't want to take credit for something I didn't completely drew myself. The next Pack published (which will be soon) will have the file in it.--Tribun 03:21, 6 February 2013 (PST)
Excellent. Thank you for your cooperation. --Terilem 03:23, 6 February 2013 (PST)

Small Request[edit]

Just a small thing: I noticed you again start replacing paperdoll images (b.c. of filters or missing pants). Could you please keep the characters that are shownthe same as in the current images instead of just using the generic Avatar paperdolls? Thanks.--Tribun (talk) 05:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

If it's not paperdoll artwork that only appears in Exult, I do keep the character the same; otherwise, I change it to something consistent with what appeared in the game as released by Origin. Besides, when the purpose of the image is to show an object and not a person, why does it matter who the paperdoll character is? --Terilem (talk) 06:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Avatar doesn't fail[edit]

Actually, even though it hasn't been officially enshrined in policy, there has been talk about keeping contingencies that require unbecoming conduct by the Stranger (incompetence, unvirtuous behaviour post-U3, and so on) out of articles' main body. This is, of course, something we usually do anyway. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 12:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Right, but wouldn't that only apply to a sentence that said, in essence, "This is what happens if you say 'no'"? As far as I can see, all that particular sentence said was, "While there is a choice in the matter, this is what happens when you say 'yes'". --Terilem (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't follow. Which "that" applies to what was there before I made the edit and which applies to my edit? The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:02, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The second applies to what was there before your edit. The first is a hypothetical one to illustrate my impression of what your proposal for contingencies would apply to in this context. What I'm saying is I'm not sure it's applicable in this case, since the original text didn't actually describe an "incorrect" outcome in the first place; it just alluded to there being a choice. --Terilem (talk) 00:32, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Ah, you're saying that the previous edit merely mentioned that there was a contingency. I guess there's something to that. The way I see is if there's only one contingency that we recognize in that context, then we shouldn't be recognizing there's any choice. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Where are the talks you mentioned about "keeping contingencies that require unbecoming conduct by the stranger out of the articles' main body"? The only place I'm familiar with is Blu3vib3's page. -- Fenyx4 21:05, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
No, I was not influenced by Blu3's article. They weren't formal, drawn-out discussions, with much deliberation. They were off-handish and peripheral. I recalling talking about it w/Tribun once. That's as specific as I can be.
But, if you think it premature to say that it's already been discussed, we can discuss it now. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 17:48, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Small Question[edit]

While creating "bonus PDFs" for the Ultima 6 Project in my free time (I already did the Compendium and a cluebook) I also created a PDF that'd handle the introduction (without the part on the slab) in the Style of Ultima V's intro (meaning lots of text). When the Avatar remembers the previous adventure, I did use parts of some pictures from the Lazarus intro.

Now, should I add the source at the end of the PDF, or should I again remove them (which would remove some atmosphere)? Or maybe should I send it to you that you can determine what I should do? I ask you, since you've been helpful in these questions in the past.--Tribun (talk) 03:32, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd definitely credit the source, yes. Are they just screenshots straight from the Lazarus introduction? --Terilem (talk) 06:53, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Straight from the intro. Want me to send it to you if you want to see what it is?--Tribun (talk) 07:56, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I added in fat print at the end that the shorts are from the U5L intro to make sure.--Tribun (talk) 08:28, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Excellent, thank you. Hope the PDFs turned out well. --Terilem (talk) 09:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, It'll soon be published, I'll give you notice then.--Tribun (talk) 09:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit]

Hiya! Browncoat is working on a new logo for the Shroud of the Avatar Wiki. I was wondering if we could get the source file for the logo here so we could use and tweak the brackets? -- Fenyx4 22:14, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Sure. What would be the best way to get it to you? --Terilem (talk) 09:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Email if it isn't too large; editablecodex -at- gmail.com. Otherwise Dropbox would work. Thanks! -- Fenyx4 17:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Ultima 1 continuity issue[edit]

Hello Terilem. Sorry for the edits on the Timeline of the Ultima Universe page, and thanks for the link to Talk:Mondain. Still, everything that I read in that page does not answer my objections. But I'd like to quote what Warder Dragon wrote on that page: "All we need to do is present to the readers what the games tell us, and let them draw their own conclusions".

The following table shows what the game tells me, and my conclusions at the bottom. If I made a mistake, please tell me where it is in the table below.

Note that the table below is about Ultima 1 only. After the issues in Ultima 1 are solved, we can talk about Akalabeth, Ultima 2 and Ultima 3, but I say: one problem at a time! --Abacos (talk) 09:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Chronology of Ultima 1
  • Lord British arrives in Sosaria
  • Lord British and Mondain start fighting
  • Mondain creates the Gem of Immortality
  • At this point, one fact does and does not happen at the same time[1]; continuity splits in two:
The Stranger
DOES NOT
arrive from the future
The Stranger
DOES
arrive from the future
  • Mondain becomes immortal
  • Mondain is killed by the Stranger
  • The Stranger falls into a "magic slumber"
During the following 1000 years:
  • Mondain keeps gathering followers and evil spawn
  • Lord British keeps resisting against Mondain
During the following 1000 years:
  • Mondain's followers keep spawning after the death of Mondain
    (perhaps maybe this includes Minax and Exodus?)
  • Lord British keeps resisting against Mondain's followers
  • Lord British finds the slumbering Stranger
1000 years later:
  • Mondain is nowhere to be found because he's hiding
  • Lord British succeeds in summoning the Stranger
  • The Stranger finds the Time Machine and uses it to leave this continuity
    (i.e. he moves up, to the other column of this table).
1000 years later:
  • Mondain is nowhere to be found because he's long dead
  • Lord British succeeds in summoning the correct Stranger (identical to the slumbering one)
  • The Stranger finds the Time Machine and uses it to travel back in time
    (i.e. he moves up, in the same column of this table)
  • The slumbering Stranger awakens and is cheered by all the populace
In conclusion, along this timeline:
  • MONDAIN IS ALIVE AND WELL
  • THE STRANGER IS GONE FOREVER
  • The Ultima series does not continue
In conclusion, along this timeline:
  • MONDAIN IS DEAD SINCE 1000 YEARS
  • THE STRANGER IS HERE
  • The Ultima series continues
  1. Same as in the British movie Sliding Doors, made in British studios and set in London (Great Britain). Look for it and watch it! :)

My questions:

  1. Is there any mistake in the table above?
  2. How can this website rationally pretend that Mondain died 1000 years after the creation of the Gem of Immortality? He either died straight away, or he didn't die at all.
  3. Why does this website want the left continuity-column at all? The right continuity-column is self-consistent, and it alone is sufficient to explain everything.

If these questions were answered already, just tell me on which webpages I can read them. Thanks in advance for your help. --Abacos (talk) 09:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Abacos, thank you for the well-presented outline. The main issue, as I see it, is that you're arriving at these conclusions based solely on the perspective of Ultima I, whereas on the wiki the entire series must be accounted for. Origin was notorious for both directly and indirectly retconning past entries, and the circumstances by which Mondain rose to power and was defeated are no exception. In light of this, I'm afraid I don't see how it's practical to solve the issues of U1 without taking the rest of the series into consideration.
The discussion on Mondain's talk page concluded the span of time covered by U1 should be kept deliberately vague, so as to neither contradict it nor the rest of the series, while also circumventing the requirement for speculative rationales. That is more or less how Origin handled it the further the series progressed, and I believe we should too.
At this point I might note the Timeline article, in its current form, doesn't actually contradict anything you're arguing as far as I can see; it merely condenses the sequence of events into one point and glosses over some of the specifics you're pressing for. Again, this is pretty much what Origin ended up doing.
I believe we're seeing a fundamental difference in how to approach this: you're proposing a chronological loop (I think; correct me if I'm wrong) in which Mondain's death is history that must be fulfilled, whereas the game itself presents his immortality and millennium of invasion as a reality having already transpired, which must be reversed. It's not that I can't see the logic in your proposal; I'm just not comfortable with how much it plays with many branches of established lore.
The passage of 1000 years, unfortunately, poses a problem within the context of the entire series. I have a few other thoughts, too:
  • I'm interpreting your proposal to be contradicting the games and manuals that are adamant Mondain was alive at the time of the Stranger's summoning. Should the populace not already be long aware of Mondain's death when the Stranger appears? Furthermore, that we don't personally see him in the "present" doesn't discount the possibility that others did, either during or prior to U1.
  • Taking into account the chronology given relative to Mondain's death in various manuals, it means U2 and U3 would both have to occur within that 1000 years, which A) has multiple Strangers co-existing in the same reality, and B) makes it rather odd that everyone in U1's "present" is still talking about the ongoing threat of Mondain, when there would already have been two more major incursions in the form of Minax and Exodus. Consider also that three quarters of Sosaria already has to have been sundered by the time of U3, i.e. within roughly 25 years or so of Mondain's death.
  • Shamino, a native Sosarian, would be more than 1000 years old even before the several additional centuries covered by the rest of the series. I know Ultima plays fast and loose with that sort of thing, but as you saw we felt it was a touch too absurd to reconcile. The 200 years between U6 and U7 was enough to noticeably advance him into middle age.
Likewise, if I'm missing something, please feel free to say so. I hope we can reach a solution that satisfies both sides of the debate. --Terilem (talk) 10:40, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


Indeed, I consider any "alteration of the past" as contrary to logic, because it assumes that one event can happen and not-happen at the same time, and that's impossible and illogic. Furthermore, I consider "alterations of the past" as plot flaws caused by authors (Richard Garriott, in this case) that did not put facts in proper chronological order. Still, I admit it's OK for fun and comedies (I love Back to the Future and Sliding Doors).
Indeed, there is a contradiction about Mondain being alive or not in the present of Ultima 1. I assume that Mondain's followers made everyone believe that Mondain is still alive. Do you know the British novel 1984 by George Orwell? In the book, the communist party tells everyone that Big Brother is alive, even if he should be more than 100 years old, and indeed nobody ever saw him, nor anyone knows where he is. Same as Mondain!!! ("1984" was published in 1949, 32 years before "Ultima 1".)
Let's see the present of Ultima 1 from the point of view of any character that did not travel in time, assuming Ultimacodex's point of view:
  1. historical chronicles say that, 1000 years before, no Stranger appeared and Mondain was not killed;
  2. the Stranger is summoned, then he leaves on a Time Machine;
  3. Mondain disappears in thin air, without any apparent reason;
  4. the memory of everyone suddely changes, as well as written chronicles, and now everybody knows that, 1000 years before, the Stranger appeared and Mondain was killed, even though this blatantly contradicts line 1!
  5. an asleep Stranger appears out of nowhere, without any apparent reason.
These sudden changes make no sense to me! That's why I propose to bin the left/red continuity/column in the table above and keep the other one only.
Let's get to Ultima 2. Thanks to the presence of the Time Doors, Minax can travel in time, i.e. she can freely jump up and down along the timeline table. The Time of Legends is outside time, i.e. it'd be in a third column in the table above. Therefore, here is how I would fit Ultima 1 and 2:
  • Mondain is killed as soon as he makes the Gem of Immortality.
  • Few years later, Minax starts traveling in time using the Time Gates: first of all, she moves to the timeless Age of Legends.
  • From the Time of Legends, Minax gets 1000 years in her future, right after the happy ending of Ultima 1, and kidnaps the Stranger; she also displaces Lord British and all of his castle.
  • Some time after the abduction of the Stranger, both the Stranger and the ruins of Shadowguard appear in Sosaria (because the Time of Legend collapsed when the Stranger defeated Minax).
  • Lord British gets magically back to Sosaria together with Iolo, Gwenno, Sentri and Dupre (maybe he could use the Orb of the Moons already?)
The Time Gates also explain the existence of Baradin's Town in Pangea age and the presence of computer programmers in 1423 B.C. (Andy Greenberg, Robert Woodhead, John Mayer, Gerry Mayer): all these people stepped into Time Gates before the beginning of the Stranger's quest.
Now it's the turn of Ultima 3. Luckily, there is no time travel involved here. The only change I propose is that Exodus was conceived before the Gem of Immortality, and he/it kept hiding and scheming for 1000 years, until after the ruins of Shadowguard appear in Sosaria's present.
Does my personal interpretation make sense? Did I forget something? I'm looking forward for your feedback :) --Abacos (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh, yes: the disappearance of three continents at the beginning of "Ultima 3". Easy! Official sources say: "The release of magic power at the death of Mondain rended space and TIME". That is, Mondain died as soon as the Gem of Immortality was made, and part of his magic powers rended time, traveled randomly to the future and by chance emerged before the beginning of Ultima 3, affecting the geography. --Abacos (talk) 14:28, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Errata corrige[edit]

ERRATA CORRIGE: I re-read the Ultima 2 manual

The "Ultima 2" manual reads: "Throughout their studies, two complementary theories persisted:

  • one was that evil was derived from a single, overpowering source which was Minax;
  • the other was that the total elimination of the root cause could reverse its effects from all time."

I deeply disagree with the second theory; it is the same as saying that, after someone is shot in the head, the total elimination of bullet, gun and killer would resurrect the victim. Or shall we suppose that the Time Gates work like "magic vacuum cleaners" that suck in time-travelers only (and nothing else) when they disappear?

Ultima 2 chronology
Pangea age
  • Time gates appear, Baradin's Town is founded, the Stranger pays a visit
  • Later, Time Gates disappear from this age (because of facts that happened outside this timeline, i.e. in the timeless Time of Legends)
Time of Legends
  • Minax opens a Time Gate and gets here
  • Minax builds Shadowguard Castle, and opens more Time Gates that link to different ages (i.e. different points in the left column)
  • Minax travels from here through the Time Gates and causes trouble in various ages (displacement of British Castle, 2111 A.D. total war)
  • The Stranger comes in and defeats Minax
  • The Time Gates and Shadowguard collapse at the death of Minax; the castle ruins disappear from this dimension together with the Stranger
1423 B.C., i.e. about 3400 years before the "present" of Ultima 1&2:
  • Time gates appear, Lord British and his castle are displaced here by Minax; the Stranger pays a visit; Time Gates disappear
  • Lord British finds a way to leave this age with Brother Antos (either they stepped in a Time Gate before they disappeared, or maybe British could use the Orb of the Moons already?)
1000 years before the "present" of Ultima 1&2:
  • Mondain is killed as soon as the Gem of Immortality is completed
  • The "Ultima 2" manual says that most of Mondain's horrors disappear and an age of peace follows
  • Few years later, Minax starts creating orcs and gathering followers in the name of Mondain (their descendants are the enemies in the present of "Ultima 1")
  • Time Gates appear in this age, and people start traveling in time (i.e. jump up and down the timeline-table)
  • Minax steps into the Time Gates and leaves this continuity by going to the timeless Time of Legends (being timeless, it must be in a separate column of the timeline-table)
  • Later, the Time Gates in this age disappear (because of facts that happened outside this timeline, i.e. in the timeless Time of Legends).
The present age, 1000 years later:
  • Retroactive corrections:
    • The "Ultima 2" manual explains (in my opinion) that Mondain's followers in "Ultima 1" are the descendants of Minax's creatures
    • The Earth in "Ultima 2" has to be considered Sosaria.
  • So, the slumbering Stranger wakes up and everybody rejoices.
  • Time Gates appear in this age, and people start traveling in time (i.e. jump up and down the timeline-table)
  • Lord British tells the Stranger that someone should defeat Minax. The Stranger volunteers, s/he steps into a Time Gate and starts traveling in time (jumping up and down the timeline-table)
  • Minax travels to her future using the Time Gates; she abducts Lord British and all of his castle, and displaces them to another age (i.e. way up along this continuity)
  • Some time later, the Time Gates in this age disappear, then the Stranger and the ruins of Shadowguard materialize in Sosaria (because Minax was defeated in the timeless Time of Legends, and because the magic powers at Mondain's death 1000 years earlier rended space and time)
  • Lord British, Father Antos, Brother Antos and Dupre somehow get back to this age (either they used the Time Gates before they disappeared from other ages, or maybe British could use the Orb of the Moons already?)
1990 A.D. or rather "just before the age of enlightment"
(Maybe between Ultima 3 and 4? Maybe during the upheavals caused by the defeat of Exodus?)
  • Time Gates appear in this age, and people start traveling in time (i.e. jump up and down the timeline-table)
  • The Stranger pays a visit through the Time Gates; he meets Lord British, Brother Antos, Sentri, Iolo & Gwenno
  • The Stranger pays a second visit through the Time Gates, and he gets a magic ring
  • Some time later, the Time Gates in this age disappear.
2111 A.D.:
  • Humankind already colonized most of the Solar System
  • Time gates appear; Minax arrives through the Time Gates and causes a world conflict that destroys most of human civilization

2112 A.D. aftermath:

  • Many people, including Father Antos and Dupre, arrive through the Time Gates and visit different planets
  • The Stranger pays a visit, meets Dupre on Jupiter and Father Antos on planet X
  • Later, Dupre and Father Antos leave this age, probably using the Time Gates
  • Some time later, Time Gates disappear forever.

But maybe I am writing too much... --Abacos (talk) 10:46, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

UD25[edit]

I overheard your name yesterday at the event and was like "Yay! Terilem is here!" Sadly it turned out to be others commenting on how they wished you were here. Wish you (and other wiki editors) were here! -- Fenyx4 09:29, 26 February 2017 (MST)

Aww shucks. :D I've seen the photos and a bit of the livestream; it looks like everyone there had a great time. With so many wiki editors spread around the world I think it's great a bunch were able to make it! --Terilem (talk) 07:44, 27 February 2017 (MST)

Gwenno[edit]

I see someone still pays some attention to Ultima 2!

I know that Ultima 2 poses several problems to the continuity. There is an official solution, but it feels flawed. I think that the real opinion about Ultima 2 is: "We need huge retroactive corrections to fit it in the rest; please, just pretend it never happened". If you (unofficially) agree, please check my user page, where I wrote an alternative timeline for the Ages of Darkness that is still coherent with all information presented in the games (and I needed no retroactive corrections at all). Maybe we already discussed about that, but my analysis (it is not speculation, just analysis) was completed long later. ---Abacos (talk) 04:39, 11 May 2017 (MDT)

Yeah, I certainly agree U2 is a bit of a problem child and Origin clearly thought so too. I wouldn't argue the consensus here is to ignore it, though; I don't think we've ever shied away from it having taken place on Earth (unlike U3-7). On the whole I think the wiki has about done the best it can, given the source material.
I've had a look over your timeline before and rather enjoyed it as a reimagining of the Age of Darkness. You've clearly put a great deal of thought into it and I applaud any effort to make those early events cohere. It's no small feat. --Terilem (talk) 06:36, 11 May 2017 (MDT)

Ultima 2 templates[edit]

Hello Terilem. Discussion about timelines brought me to Ultima 2. Currently there are two templates:

Space Time
Template:Planets nav Template:Time-Zones nav
Terran Solar System
Star Terran Sun
Planets Mercury Venus Earth Mars Jupiter Saturn Uranus Neptune Pluto Planet X
Non-Earth Cities
(Ultima II)
Towne Mary (Mars) Village of the Preppies (Jupiter) New Jester (Uranus) Computer Camp (Neptune)
Tommersville (Pluto) Towne Makler (Pluto) Towne Basko (Planet X) Castle Barataria (Planet X)
Ultima II Time Zones
Pangea Baradin's Town
1423 B.C. Castle of Lord British Le Jester Towne Linda
1990 A.D. Castle of Lord British New San Antonio Port Bonifice
2112 A.D. aftermath Pirates Harbour
Time of Legends Shadowguard

Except for Earth and Mars, all planets are only featured in Ultima 2, and only along the ahistorical timeline. I propose to split up the two sets. The Time-Zones template omits most of the locations that the Avatar visited exclusively in the ahistorical 2112 A.D., that is the planets and their settlements.

I think the templates would be more effective if "normal" time-space and "ahistorical" time-space were well separated, as below. This would also allow to clean-up the planets pages, that currently include scientific information completely irrelevant to the Ultima series. I would have to adjust some more pages that are linked, of course. What do you think about it?

This is a draft, with some temporary names. Everything about the timeline and the space of Ultima 2 is put together in the same template, and the "normal" (but more relevant) template becomes far smaller.

Normal / Real Ahistorical
The Avatar's Homeworld
Past & Present Earth Mars
Ahistorical future Minax's Ahistorical Time-Space
Minax's Ahistorical Time-Space
Pangea Baradin's Town
1423 B.C. Castle of Lord British Le Jester Towne Linda
1990 A.D. Castle of Lord British New San Antonio Port Bonifice
2112 A.D. aftermath Earth Pirates Harbour
Sun Mercury Venus Saturn
Mars Towne Mary
Jupiter Village of the Preppies
Uranus New Jester
Neptune Computer Camp
Pluto Towne Makler Tommersville
Planet X Towne Basko Castle Barataria
Time of Legends Shadowguard

--Abacos (talk) 13:58, 6 August 2017 (MDT)

Hmm, I can't say I have a strong opinion about it either way, as long as navigation remains user-friendly. Blu3vib3 might be a better person for discussion of these matters; I believe U2 is one of her particular areas of interest, and she's had a lot to do with the articles this would impact.
One thing that does seem confusing to me is having a link to Mars under "The Avatar's Homeworld". I think I see what you're going for, but a more appropriate title might be better here. --Terilem (talk) 03:14, 7 August 2017 (MDT)