Talk:Codex of Ultimate Wisdom

When did he become Avatar?
I had the idea that avatarhood was achieved when the last shrine gives you an eighth. This article has it that it is only achieved when the Codex is liberated. If that's true, no wonder no one else can become an Avatar. AngusM 02:12, June 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that if its clearly stated somewhere, but Lord British says this in U4: "The Quest of the Avatar is to know and become the embodiment of the Eight Virtues of Goodness! It is known that all who take on this Quest must prove themselves by conquering the Abyss and Viewing the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom!". This somehow implies that to prove you are an Avatar, and therefore really be an Avatar, you must get to the Codex. But then, other texts suggest that you only need to achieve perfection in each virtue. I'm not sure if there is a subtle distinction between being an eight-parts Avatar and having proven yourself as an Avatar by getting to the Codex. At least it IS stated by LB that to complete the Quest of the Avatar, you have to reach the Codex.--Sega381 02:41, June 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... so the way I see it, there are 2 issue:
 * becoming the Avatar
 * proving oneself to be the Avatar
 * Becoming isn't the same thing as proving. It seems to me that one becomes by going to the Shrines and proves by doing that Codex thing. I'll wait for more input before I do anything about it, though. AngusM 19:28, June 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is clear that by reaching the Codex, the Stranger completed the Quest of the Avatar and proved himself/herself. When exactly he became the Avatar, is a little less clear. Therefore, I think the best thing to do would be to modify the article to say what we really know, that is, that by reaching the codex he/she finished the Quest of the Avatar and proved him/herself. And do not mention anything about when he really became the Avatar, not at least until we have some evidence.--Sega381 20:17, June 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * BTW, the Codex actually says this: first, "The boundless knowldege fo the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom is revealed unto thee", and then, the Codex says "Thou hast proven thyself to be truly good in nature. Thou must know that thy quest to become an Avatar is the quest of a lifetime. Avatarhood is a living gift. It must always and forever be nurtured to flourish. For if thou dost stray from the paths of virtue, thy way may be lost forever".--Sega381 20:40, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was about to talk about this, actually - when the Avatar reached the Codex, he didn't complete the Quest of the Avatar at all. The Codex revealed that the Quest of the Avatar is forever, as in, it can't be completed. It's a constant struggle to remain virtuous, and to learn that was the entire point of reaching the Codex in the first place. It's the lesson that's important, not climbing down into an active volcano. And the point of the Quest wasn't to create a super being, it was to provide an example for the people of Britannia to follow - if Avatarhood is unobtainable for everyone but one person, why would anyone else even try? No, Avatarhood is gained by achieving enlightenment in the eight virtues and then not striving from that path. Unfortunately I have very little in the way of cold hard facts to back me up here, but I really think that is what was intended with the whole thing. If we must make a distinction, people in U4 talk about "eight-part Avatars" being able to find the Mystics. Maybe there's a difference between eight-part Avatars and the Avatar, but I truly doubt it. --Warder Dragon 21:57, June 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, so what we have is: you get to be an Avatar once you do this, you don't get to be an Avatar until you do something else, and you never get to be an Avatar. The Avatar was supposed to be an example to the people, but I'm pretty sure that he was also supposed to be, maybe not a superbeing, but definitely a being of a different qualification.
 * But we're getting away from the issue here. The issue on this, the discussion page, is when does the Stranger become the Avatar. I had the idea it was not at the end of the game, but before the big finale, which means some of the text should read "Avatar" and not "Stranger". AngusM 03:32, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Lord British also says the following: "It is said that in the deepest recesses of the Abyss is the Chamber of the Codex! It is also said that only one of highest Virtue may enter this Chamber, one such as an Avatar!!!". This implies that someone is already an Avatar when reaching the Codex, saying that the Codex will only let an Avatar enter, not that the Codex will turn someone into an Avatar. Therefore, the entrance to the chamber only has tests to verify that the one trying to get in was in fact an Avatar. Of course, this is not explicitly stated, but I think it's the best approximation when can get.Sega381 14:26, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

I see it more simple. You need to be an eight-part Avatar to even enter, meaning you need to know about the virtues individually. What the Codex does is to test if you actually can also let the virtues work together in harmony, becoming the Avatar of Infinity (the combination of all virtues and principles), as shown by the infinity sign at the end.

So you are an "Aspiring Avatar" by having proven mastership of all eight virtues, thus enabling you to reach the Codex. But to be a true Avatar, you need to pass the test of Infinity.--Tribun 15:20, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * But there's no such thing as an Avatar of Infinity. The Avatar is an Avatar of Virtue, and Infinity is not a virtue. The Axiom of Infinity is that the virtues combine into and are combined from the principles... infinitely. It's definitely an important part of the system of virtues, but it's not what defines the Avatar. The people of Cove - and others - knew all about it long before the Avatar recovered the Codex. I stand by what I said before, and I'm even more convinced now that I saw that LB quote. The Avatar became an Avatar before reaching the Codex, but wasn't fully aware of the extent of the Quest until the Codex divulged that it would last forever. --Warder Dragon 15:27, June 26, 2010

(UTC)
 * Makes sense to me, Warder. Banner removed, then? --Polygoncount 05:00, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Uh... I think there needs to be more than banner removal. Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that consensus on the timing of Avatarhood is inconsistent w/the text. In which case, it would also have to be changed.
 * It seemed that folks were saying that Avatarhood was achieved when the Stranger meditated at the last shrine. The wording in the article has the "Stranger" reaching the Codex, implying he wasn't the Avatar yet. AngusM 03:02, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Risen or Stolen ?
I'm surprised this hasn't been brout up before, but I think this is matter worth discussing. Now it seems most if not all the pages related to the Codex on the Ultima Wiki keeps with the Ultima V/Lazarus explanation of the rising of the Codex from the Abyss by the Great Council.

Except... this is an aspect that has very much been retconned from Ultima VI onward. I mean Ultima VI states inevocably that the Avatar seized the Codex at the bottom of the Abyss and brought it back (and also - yes - retconned the Ultima IV ending this way), and this is the explanation that is also put forward in all Britannian Ultima that followed both in-game and inside the manuals.

Now I don't want to be a pain, but usually as far at retcon goes - it is the most current version that should be put forth, especially since the fact that Avatar took the Codex is kind of too important not to be mentionned.

Now I expect some people will bring the theory that you can reconcile this by saying these are just in-universe mistakes from Ultima VI-onward, but as usual I do not feel it is our role to decide that so at the very least the decrepencies and the two version of these events deserves to be mentioned. Thoughts ? --Sergorn 21:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)