Talk:Gwenno

I thought Gwenno was killed by Hazard the Trapper's men. Right before entering (or exiting, depending on your point of view) into Gwanni territory, the Avatar comes across a dying trapper describing how Gwenno took out most of the trapping party before killing her.

--Terilem 07:35, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed -- fixed this error. I don't recall any indication of Batlin being involved in her death and a thorough check of the Usecode turns up nothing of the sort.

Gwino
At the least we should mention the possibility they are the same character. But with the proximity to Iolo I think it is more than likely "Gwino" is an early spelling of "Gwenno" especially with the third form of "Gweno" worked in there in U2. -- Fenyx4 04:58, May 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, I tried to add it in a clear way.--Sega381 05:33, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that "Gwenno" is apparently just a nickname in light of her full name being mentioned in the U5 manual, I think it would be safe for the article to assume, without ambiguity, that other spellings are indeed the same person. Her appearance in Ultima I is probably appropriately handled as is, though. --Terilem 14:49, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

The way it is now, it seems to take it for granted that Gwino is the same person, but it's pretty outlandish. Is that the way we wanted to go? Here, one of the many unvirtuous things the Stranger did was murder Gwino, which doesn't seem to have soured there relationship in the games to come. And this is how it is described in the article. I think we need to talk about when Gwenno canonically came into existence and what we will leave for discussion in the Trivia section. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 22:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Homeworld
I guess I'd always assumed Gwenno to be from Earth like the other companions, given her longevity and connection to Iolo, but thus far I can't find any source stating as such. In fact, her dialogue in Serpent Isle would seem to suggest otherwise:


 * "Unless Balance is restored, this land shall die... And take every world that touches it into the dust of oblivion as well. Britannia -- even thine home, Avatar -- is in deadly peril! No world exists without influencing another. So all may be destroyed if New Sosaria dies."

--Terilem (talk) 05:00, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * If she was on Earth in Ultima 2 with LB and Iolo also being there, it certainly implies she was a native to it. --Iceblade (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * After centuries of living in Britannia with her husband she may no longer consider Earth as "home". -- Fenyx4 14:14, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh... if the best we have is that she's Iolo's wife and she was on Earth during a period of heavy interdimensional migration, I don't think the article should even be discussing her homeworld. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 17:14, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Certainly not definitive by any means, but she did also write the lyrics for Stones, which are about Stonehenge. --Terilem (talk) 03:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Is that factoid in-game or out-game? Oh, wait... Wiltshire... that's Stonehenge. Ok, so I guess we can be pretty sure that in-game Gwenno has spent a lot of time on Earth... which we already knew.
 * With such a clear indication that she has strong ties to Earth, I think it's safe to say that she's spent a lot of time there, but I don't think we should be talking about knowing where she's from The Ultra-Mind (talk) 22:23, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I can't really argue against that. I still feel like she's "supposed" to be from Earth, but I concede that largely hinges on the real world knowledge of whom she's based on. Plus, her Serpent Isle dialogue does give me pause. At any rate, if there's no canonical source stating as such, then we probably shouldn't be saying so. --Terilem (talk) 06:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The Serpent Isle dialogue honestly doesn't give me any pause. Technically you could say "thine home" to someone you are currently living with and not be implying that you don't live there. Plenty of reasons why the writer would have her say "thine" instead of "our". Wanting to use olde timey speech. Laziness. To avoid the unwanted implications of "our". (Hell, if it had been "our" we'd probably have people arguing that Gwenno had left her husband and was now living with the Avatar.) And plenty of others. (Although I still feel that the most likely explanation is simply that she hasn't been on Earth in centuries and therefore no longer considers it home. I would no longer consider my hometown home and I haven't lived there in a mere 10 years.)


 * We probably haven't found any "Hey I am from Earth!" moments because they are usually pretty circumspect about that stuff. Ultra-Mind, I see from your edit from last year on Sentri's page that this has been a thorn in your side for a long time. But I'm with Ice-Blade on this, her being on Earth in Ultima II is pretty good indication she is from Earth. Although I typically ignore Ultima II when trying coherent canon and instead think the more telling point is that all characters that RG introduced in Ultima I and Ultima II that are based on real life friends that continue to show up in later Ultimas are all, as far as the ones we have direct proof for, from Earth. Characters from non-Earth other worlds show up post-Ultima 4 are Origin employees bringing in characters from other games.


 * A bit of a tangent but the Time Doors are, well, **time** doors and I don't see where you are getting "heavy interdimensional migration" from. -- Fenyx4 13:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You're right, it has been, and for far too long! I shall parade it before its conquered people!

The thing about the time doors is that they do not just move people in time, but also space. This allows for an anything-goes situation. BTW, my memory is hazy on the certainty of the Earthly origins of the rear echelon companions. Can others confirm that all the other companions of the same significance of Gwenno are also from Earth?

I do agree w/Fenyx that the SI text doesn't support this case, though. Gwenno clearly hasn't been living on Earth for a long time, while the Avatar has always resided on Earth and only visits Britannia for 100-hour vacations. Earth is far more the Avatar's than it is Gwenno's. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * With regards to time doors: Unless I'm missing something, it might be a bit of an overreach to assume they are capable of interworld/interdimensional travel just because they have demonstrated spacial travel within the same world. Are there any actual examples of this?


 * As for companions, whom do you have in mind? The only companion I'd consider to be of the same significance as Gwenno is Sentri. --Terilem (talk) 03:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I just thought it was a foregone conclusion that the time doors stretched into the Britannia/Sosoria/whatever realm, even though this isn't immediately apparent from looking at the maps. This is how all these Britannian personalities appear in U2. Take the history section of the U4 manual: "...Minax rose to power soon thereafter to challenge the fledgling city-states..." That seems to be talking about where we left off in U1. The language in the rest of the text also seems to take it for granted that Minax was busy in the same world as in U1 and U3.
 * I was thinking of companions like Geoffrey, who is usually an afterthought to me. Spark, Gorn is rather forgettable, Seggallion, etc. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, see, now you are opening a whole other kettle of fish. What is canon for Ultima 2? Well... That depends when you are asking. In Ultima 2 the events of Ultima 2 only takes place on Earth (and whatever place the Time of Legends is which is an entirely different argument but, considering the U2 manual, I would still place it on Earth). In fact in Ultima 2 the events of Ultima 1 take place on Earth as well "Mondain was a disease on the landscape; he reigned over all the evils ever known, and more; he brought them all to fruition on Earth and its environs at once. He enjoyed seeing Earth’ s well meaning humanoids squirm."
 * In later Ultimas that is retconned and/or glossed over. So, for example, in Ultima 5 the events of Ultima 2 took place in Sosaria (no Earth at all). I'm pretty sure it isn't until Ultima 9 that the events of Ultima 2 involve interdimensional travel "She and her minions did not stop until they had bridged time and space to reach the land of the traveller." But, well, that is Ultima 9... Let's not get into that digression here. Anyways this is what I was eluding to early with "instead think the more telling point is that all characters that RG introduced in Ultima I and Ultima II that are based on real life friends that continue to show up in later Ultimas are all, as far as the ones we have direct proof for, from Earth". Spark, Gorn and Seggallion don't fall into this group of NPCs.
 * Spark is clearly a Britannian and doesn't show up until Ultima 7 and doesn't have any sort of lengthened life.
 * Gorn doesn't show up until Ultima 5 and from a different Origin game and isn't a friend of Richard's from outside Ultima but the alter-ego of an Origin employee.
 * Seggallion is also from a different Origin game.
 * The ones I do feel fall into the group are Gwenno, Dupre, Iolo, Sentri, and Chuckles. (Shamino and Lord British are arguably part of this group but they are alter-ego's of Richard himself so don't entirely fit. Also I feel that the original 8 companions in Ultima IV could be added to the group as well. But I digress.) They all show up in Ultima I and II. They all show to have lengthened lifespans. They are all counterparts of people Richard Garriot knows in real-life. So let's pull up the earliest reference to the "they're from Earth" that I recall Ultima V's Book of Lore "In fact, it's believed that he brought back close friends to dwell with him in his chosen world - Iolo the Bard and the knight Dupre are almost certainly his landsmen. Among the evidence of this is the aging process."
 * I really don't think it is a stretch at all to say "Richard not only brought David Watson from Earth but also brought David's wife Kathleen". -- Fenyx4 20:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Fenyx. The reason I put Gwenno and Sentri on the same level is that while they aren't part of the eight companions, they're clearly not as ancillary as others who can join the party. They both have a history and rapport with the "inner circle" (Iolo, Dupre, Shamino, etc.). Let's also not forget that Geoffrey and Katrina both explicitly describe themselves being from Earth in U7. Other than the Avatar Adventures interview where RG says any character with an extended lifespan is probably from Earth, you've already touched upon any other supporting arguments I could give. --Terilem (talk) 23:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that I took my wife from my country, continent, race and language either, but you'd be dead wrong on all counts. Come to think of it, there's another editor around here w/the same story.

The answer to U2 canon is a pretty simple one: it's a confusing mess, so we don't rely on it. So I'm hoping we aren't going the way of everyone we don't visit using the rocket ship (including Minax) is from Earth.

However, that talk about longevity and together w/those other texts makes a pretty strong case for Gwenno being from Earth. Such a wide array of individually sketchy syllogisms doesn't make for much of a citation, though. That may not matter for a single character, but it would be nice if we could come up w/some way to rubber-stamp all the other Earth migrants. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Her shipmates going to SI
From what Smith says, she appears to have come w/Batlin, although that might be reading too much into the wording. At first it seems that Scots was also w/her, but all we get from that line he says that that he was there at her request. Maybe he travelled at a different time? It seems like they were together when the ship landed at Fawn, but maybe he was already at Fawn, or he arrived at Fawn later to find the obelisk there and Gwenno gone. Also, there's confusion about who came w/Scots. Alyssand just mentions Leon, Ruggs and Kalen, but just says they came "here". Is "here" SI from Britannia or Fawn from another part of SI? Other conversations seems to indicate that it was more than just those 4, but again, those conversations could be about voyages from around SI, not the one that went through the Serpent Pillars. So w/all this confusion, I just thought it best that we just not talk about the circumstances of her voyage through the pillars. Feel free to put it back, if anyone can sort out that hay.

BTW, the first part of the Armageddon section suggests that Batlin could not have come w/Gwenno, because it claims that she went to SI before U7. However, this information appears to come from a note the duplicate of which I've not been able to find on-line. We shall see... The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The way I've concluded that Gwenno indeed arrived before Batlin to the Serpent Isle. Batlin arrived more or less at the end of the Black Gate, teleporting straight to the obelisk transferred in advance. Gwenno had already departed the Fellowship camp before Batlin arrived. --Time Lord 21:09, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I just put it back in. It is all in the transcript although scattered across a few conversations. Smith does seem to disagree with others but he isn't the most reliable source and his statement also disagrees with what we personally witness in the game. Just to be clear only two boats came to SI. The one Gwenno and all the people in the list came in on and the one we came in on. Batlin teleported in via the obelisk. -- Fenyx4 21:52, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd already been through all those references, and like I said, I haven't been able to find enough glue to make sure that all these people were together on the voyage from Britannia. We know that some of them sailed together, but that could have been after their arrival. Geof's connection is especially weak, since he's only mentioned in one line. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 16:41, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't confused until this discussion started. Are you questioning whether all the shipmates are from Britannia, or whether all of them arrived on the same voyage? Because...
 * Ruggs describes himself as Britannian, and says his ship was hired by Batlin. He also says that Leon, Palos, Brunt, Deadeye, and Scots (all Britannian) were his shipmates.
 * Scots describes accepting Gwenno's offer on Britannia and goes on to complain about the weight of the obelisk she had to transport when they moved it off the ship. This puts them on the same voyage as each other, and by extension, the aforementioned crew.
 * If that wasn't enough, Jendon says Brunt, Ruggs, Deadeye, Kalen, Scots, and Gwenno were all on "that ship that sailed from the other side of the world -- said something about Serpent Pillars in the ocean." --Terilem (talk) 09:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Except for Geof, I don't question their Brtiannianness, just who sailed w/who when. I missed that "other side of the world" reference, but it doesn't identify Gwenno or Scots. All we know about the obelisk is that both Gwenno and Scots were acquainted w/it, but it may not have been at the same time. All the other sailors mentioned in the article have the same problem: it may not have been at the same time (they may have sailed together after the Pillars). The Ultra-Mind (talk) 15:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "I was holding the door open for one of the crew who was running for shelter when one of those storms hit. There was this bright flash and a deafening crash... And when mine eyes cleared, Geof was gone and a chicken stood gawking at me in the very spot Geof had been in." - Ruggs
 * Emphasis mine. Geof is indeed only mentioned once and is referred to as crew. I don't find that weak at all.
 * You have presented no evidence of the people listed coming across in more than one boat. There are no hints that they came across in more than one boat. There is no reason they would have come across in more than one boat. I understand your argument, you think there is a lack of evidence, but I and others all view the same thing and think there is evidence which points towards them coming over together. -- Fenyx4 16:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ruggs' dialogue:
 * "Our ship was hired by Batlin to transport scholars to explore a new land and spread word of The Fellowship."
 * Jendon's dialogue:
 * sailors: "They were the crew of that ship that sailed from the other side of the world -- said something about Serpent Pillars in the ocean." "Brunt, Ruggs, Deadeye, Kalen... I found them congenial enough. Excepting Kalen... he enjoyed arguing with my customers."
 * scholars: "Came on the ship. Said The Fellowship had sent them here to study our way of life -- make maps, collect histories, and so forth. Scots is the geographer. Spends all his time working on his new map of the continent. Then there was the culturist -- her name was, uh... Gwenno..."
 * How does Jendon not identify Gwenno and Scots? That's exactly what he does. It also bears mentioning the crew arrived shortly before the storms began and have been stranded outside Fawn ever since, which eliminates the prospect of further voyages beyond their initial arrival. --Terilem (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The first of Jendon's quotes doesn't identify Gwenno or Scots, but the second one does. The evidence of separate voyages is that people keep revealing only portions of the crew, leaving out several others. However, that talk of a single crew being stranded outside Fawn at the same time would seem to clinch the single-voyage hypothesis. Who says that? BTW, if the storms only began after the crew landed, then I have a hard time picturing Geof fitting in. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Jorvin:
 * "Before these strange storms started, a ship came into our port bearing no resemblance to any ship we knew. Those aboard her told us that they had voyaged from Old Sosaria. Though our seamen found this hard to believe, we accepted them. Leon began preaching about some strange notion called The Fellowship right before the storms started. Kylista took this as a sign that the heavens were angry with us for allowing this foreign belief into the city."
 * Lady Yelinda:
 * sailors: "They and their passengers arrived shortly before the storms began."
 * passengers: "There was a portly mage named Batlin and a lovely lady named Gwenno."


 * Now, while Yelinda seems to be under the impression that Batlin arrived by ship, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to call it a cover story, or even a mere assumption on her part. Ruggs does mention accompanying Batlin into town for supplies.


 * While I can see where you're coming from, I think calling partial crew descriptions evidence for separate voyages is pretty tenuous, especially when every source I can find distinctly talks about a single ship without fail. I could easily say, "The Ultra-Mind, Fenyx4, and I are editors at the Ultima wiki," and I wouldn't be precluding other contributors.


 * As for Geof, from what I can see Ruggs doesn't actually specify when or where he was struck, so I don't see any issue there. --Terilem (talk) 08:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

That's why I didn't say partial crew descriptions are proof of multiple voyages, just evidence.

You know, I think you're right about the timing of Geof's misfortune. Ruggs was talking a lot about lightning and sailing, but when he mentions Geof, there's no reason to be certain he was giving a sailing story. But since that's the only sentence that mentions him, I don't think we can say anything about where he comes from or anything else, except that he's a victim of the storm. The Ultra-Mind (talk) 21:06, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't think Gwenno went nympho
The article used to say that when Gwenno was resurrected on SI, she hungered for "blood and sex". The closest indication is her line "Let me feel thy naked flesh!" which blurs the line between carnage and carnal lust, but I don't think that's definitive enough. Feel free to check the usecode yourself. Look for "Func0495". The Ultra-Mind (talk) 14:34, 5 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I've always interpreted it to be lustful in nature, particularly in the context of the other two Wantonness victims. As well as the homicidal gibberish, we have the following:


 * Dupre
 * "Bring to me a woman!"
 * "Fulfill thy desires!"


 * Cantra
 * "Come pleasure me!"
 * "I desire thee!"


 * The original wording would seem to gel more with the duality of the Wantonness Bane's m.o.:


 * "Hahaha! I am the Wantonness Bane! Wherever I pass, people shall frolic and sate their wild desires! I shall drive thee to feed thy darkest hungers!"


 * I personally don't feel we need to be ambiguous about it. It's hard not to see "feel thy naked flesh" as carnal, in my opinion. --Terilem (talk) 06:46, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Citation needed?
I'm not sure a convenient citation exists for Iolo's entire ordeal, but does there need to be one? I value references as much as anybody, but I don't think we can expect absolutely every in-game event to be verifiable with a transcript. --Terilem (talk) 06:59, 2 July 2014 (UTC)