Ultima Codex talk:Noun Lexicon

See Forum:Need_policy_on_capitalization_of_races_(and_I_guess_other_things) for the advent of this article.

I've decided to create this article, and just use this talk page to work out what should go in it. Like the main article, entries will be alphabetically ordered level 3 headings. I fear that there won't be a lot of input over these nouns, and the end result will be me making arbitrary decisions about what's common and what's proper. As horrid as that sounds, I think it's more important to be consistent, than it is to be perfectly correct. Besides, the more mistakes I make, the more outrage I'll cause, and the more interest I'll generate.

I should like to point out that many things that are proper nouns can also be common nouns. For instance, a Knight of the Garter can be called a "Knight" for short. Being a Knight, he is also a knight. That's a bit confusing, and as a rule of thumb I avoid it, but it's not improper. (Perhaps that very paragraph should be place in the article)

It should also be said that this won't work for all proper nouns. The Tear of Seas, for one, can be a Tear, but never a tear. A tear is a liquid secretion from an eye, while the Tear is a piece of blackrock.

Research
It's a good idea to just get a background on the criteria used to determine whether a noun is proper or common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun#Proper_nouns_and_common_nouns. AngusM 16:50, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Attributes
That's the best word I could give to things like Dexterity, Strength, Intelligence, and Armour Class. I sorta don't feel like those are proper, but I think RPGs have an old tradition of treating them as proper. I wouldn't know what to do. AngusM 03:59, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

"Avatarhood"
I'll bet the "-hood" suffix commonizes any proper noun. I'll look into this, and probably make a decision at that point. AngusM 17:23, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Only depending on how it's applied, I think. The definition is as follows:
 * A native English suffix denoting state, condition, character, nature, etc., or a body of persons of a particular character or class.
 * Specifically, the former is all that applies here and in that case I don't see any reason to believe it contradicts the capitalization of the word. If it were used to refer to a group as opposed to the state of the individual known uniquely as the Avatar, you'd definitely have a point. I say keep it capitalized. (I hope it's okay to contribute discussion here) --Terilem 05:41, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is exactly where you contribute.
 * If that's true, then when "God" (the theistic one) is suffixed w/"-hood", shouldn't the properness stay? A quick Google for "godhood" reveals only common nouns, including those appearing in a monotheistic context, and on credible sites. AngusM 05:58, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point, but on that note, what about Christhood? --Terilem 06:45, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm... looks like whatever we do won't be completely right, but it'll be difficult to say it's at all wrong. Perhaps at this point, the least incorrect way would be to go back to what Origin says about this, if we find consistency. Crikey, that means going through all the documentation again! Terilem has already found a proper noun instance in the SI manual. Is there a single place that links all the Ultima documentation PDFs? AngusM 17:29, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't worry! :) I found two instances in the "Virtues" chapter of the U5 manual, one in the U6 in-game books and another in the U7 Usecode: all capitalized. There are text files of all the Ultima manuals here and I cross-checked with the hard copies just to make sure. --Terilem 23:30, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, well check this out.
 * Perhaps we should set another policy: if manuals and game texts are perfectly consistent on a word, it gets added to the lexicon w/out debate. Maybe we'd want to tack on a "and used frequently enough". AngusM 03:26, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, but if we do, remember what I said about "knight" up at the top there. A noun that is sometimes proper and sometimes common might not be contradictory. It'll take some more wraggling to decide if it is or not. AngusM 03:29, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think the out-of-game use of the word "avatar" can be compared to its Ultima form at all; they're different meanings with different usage. It's the same old "an avatar" versus "the Avatar" thing. Group versus unique individual. "Avatar" is a name as much as it is a title in Ultima, and it belongs to one person. In any case, your idea about rubber-stamping anything that's already shown to be consistent might be wise just to avoid extra headaches. --Terilem 04:01, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!! There goes consistency. I've confirmed with Notable Ultima and moongates.com that Joshua and another guy use it as a common noun. The shrines have it proper, though.
 * Again, I'm not saying this is a contradiction, since some things can be expressed with both a common and proper noun, but it definitely isn't consistent, which means more banging of the heads. AngusM 22:05, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * But wait: Wasn't the original Ultima IV in all-CAPS?? Even if some versions were not, early Ultimas in particular were known for inconsistency... I seem to remember "altar" being spelled "alter" all over the place in my original copy. --Polygoncount 22:17, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well okay, but there's still a clear trend in favour of capitalization. I found another instance in the U5 dialogue where it's proper. I'm leaning towards "majority rules" here. --Terilem 22:21, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very good point. I, too, don't remember case when playing the game. But a quick look into the TLK files, shows case. :(
 * On the other hand, maybe that shouldn't make a difference. Maybe canon shouldn't be taken from hex edits from the files, but what the user experiences, or more specifically, what the user was intended to experience at release time. In fact, I think that line should go onto the canon page.
 * I'm not really in favour of a majority rules policy. Maybe a clear majority, like by at least 2/3 (or more). AngusM 22:27, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I just went to look at a bunch of screenshots, and all that I saw w/text had case. When I looked around here for them I wasn't sure if they were the facelift shots, but MobyGames took the guesswork out of it. AngusM 23:27, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * My vote is for Avatarhood. Majority rules works fine, and since it's clearly capitalized throughout the manuals and games - with one exception - I think this case is overdue to be closed. --Warder Dragon 23:43, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Of something like eleven confirmed instances of the word, only two aren't capitalized. That's a comprehensive majority to me. --Terilem 02:12, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, well, that's why I added "Avatarhood" to the lexicon several posts ago. But we've been working on some important precedents, like what constitutes a sufficient majority, hairsplitting over canonical events, and the like. AngusM 03:10, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

"Balance"
I see this concept as being like an SI peer to Britianian Virtue. So I see it as proper. BTW, is there some generalization for Balance, Order and Chaos? Britannia has "Virtue", but I don't recall what SI has. AngusM 04:55, July 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * They are sometimes called "Principles", and some times "properties". Besides the fact that they are captitalized in-game, I vote to make these Principles (Balance, Order an Chaos) as proper too. If no-one else votes, I'll move them to the Lexicon.--Sega381 18:37, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Chaos"
I see the answer to this as being the same as that for "Balance". AngusM 04:55, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

"Obelisk"
This is the one that is currently, and possibily coloquially, called the Blackrock Obelisk. First, I'd like to have a look at what the name should be. If everything here is as it should be, then I guess it should be proper. AngusM 21:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Obelisk components
These would be the Tongue of Flames, the Tear of Seas, etc. I don't see how these could be common. AngusM 21:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

"Order"
I see the answer to this as being the same as that for "Balance". AngusM 04:55, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

"Serpents (Great Earth/Order/Chaos)"
Yes, they are a race, but not exactly a race. They're a unique trio, which is why I think proper. Besides, we have got a load of "Great Earth Serpent" references, and not just in SI. Still, I wouldn't blame anyone for disagreeing. AngusM 04:55, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Shrines
I think this should be linked to. Since I'm used to seeing "Shrine of Compassion" and never "shrine of Compassion", I feel that this should be proper. AngusM 03:04, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with this and the Virtues issues as well. --Terilem 23:42, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree too. Therefore, I'm adding it to the Lexicon.--Sega381 18:38, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Shrines"
I see this the same way I see. AngusM 03:04, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Spells
Since these are the names of spells, I'd say that they are proper. An instance of spell casting would be common, but the spell is pretty unique. AngusM 19:57, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ultima II items
Off-hand I don't remember all the items, so maybe some are proper and others aren't. An issue of contention is Talk:Force_Field_Ring. AngusM 22:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Virtues
This is a pretty special set of words which have meaning and specifications as separate from out-world virtues. Also, Origin documentation is pretty consistent about this (probably perfectly consistent), so these should be proper. AngusM 22:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * There isn't as much interest as I had hoped, so I'll put these two into the lexicon, since I think they are pretty safe bets. AngusM 03:27, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

"Virtues"
I apply the same criteria here as for. AngusM 22:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC)